Samuel Umtiti

BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
i_bleed_blaugrana said:
I think he’ll stay another season at least unless it is the club pushing him out. Sure, knee injuries are always a gamble but he is too valuable and still has plenty of upside to sell in my book. He is 25 and is still another injury or two from being Verm. Give him at least another season to see what he has and let him and Lenglet battle it out for top spot, splitting the time 50/50. Lenglet has been immense this season and proved he is top class but personally, I still fancy Umtiti a little more.

I want de Ligt badly but not at the cost of Umtiti.
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As always, I will pull a "we don't know in which state a player is or how he performs currently every day on training grounds due to an injury" card.

Here on forum, maybe the situation is closer to: let's give him a chance, the injury was not that bad.
Maybe on training grounds it is: he is at 70-80% of what he used to be. Ok, needs time but it is very questionable whether he will reach even close to his old level.
If he gets injured again, he won't reach that level.
If he won't get injured, who knows when will he reach that level and whether he will reach it at all.

For younger fans, for example, Xavi handled well his knee injury when he was 25 and turned into a Goat midfielder later.
On the other hand, Thiago Motta suffered a knee injury in 2004, aged 22 and was never the same player.
He missed the whole 2004-05 season and in the next 2 seasons had 14 and 15 league appearances due to heavy competition and him not being at the 100% level.
In 2007, we sold him to Atletico, and you can see a quote:
In late August 2007, Motta signed a one-year contract with Atlético Madrid, for an undisclosed fee. Once again he began the season on the sidelines, injured; in the Copa del Rey quarter-final match against Valencia CF he was ejected after only 25 minutes, and the Colchoneros lost the away fixture 0–1 and subsequently the tie.

Due to injury to regular starter Raúl García and the departure of Maniche in January 2008, Motta's opportunities increased. In March, however, the recurrent knee problems reappeared and his season was over, followed by a successful surgery and rehabilitation in the United States; he trialled with Premier League side Portsmouth after his release, but did not sign for them.
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So, in Motta's case:
He was injured in a September of 2004.
Returned in May 2005.
Then he was ok or not at his best for the next 2 seasons due to not playing for 1 year.
And when he returned to form, in 2007-08, at Atletico, he had several random injuries and in March, he injured his knee again and his season was over. He was out of 3 Months.
After that he had a lots of minor muscle, calf and similar injuries.
When he signed for Inter, in 2010 he had another knee injury and had to undergo Arthroscopie and missed 2 Months.
In the next 365 days after that knee operation, he had 5 RANDOM unrelated injuries which happened again because he was off field for a long time: overstretching, fatigue fracture, overstretching again, muscular problems.
Then he had a few okish years at Psg, and it 2017-18 season he again had: 1 knee injury for 20 days. 2 weeks after returning from that injury, he had another knee injury for 40 days. After returning from that injury, only 30 days later, he got another injury and missed 30 days again.

So, with huge knee injuries:
1. they will often repeat during player's career
2. even when you'll return, you won't be your old self or you will need years to reach that level
3. and between 2 knee injuries, you will suffer 10s of random muscle, groin and calf injuries.

Other examples: Rafinha and his knee and random injuries after that.
Gabriel Milito.
He had a good first season playing 42 matches.
Then he got injured, missed 602 days with a knee injury.
And played only 33 matches for Barca combined in 2008/09, 2009/10 and 2010/11 seasons.
He played one season in Argentina after that and retired.
So, Milito NEVER returned to form after his knee injury aged 27.

For younger fans, we had a Swedish CB Patrik Anderson in early 00's.
He came here from Bayern, aged 30, injured his knee in a first season and after the injury, played only 7+5 matches in the next 2 seasons.
After that, he returned to his home, to Sweden and:
For the 2004 season, Andersson came back to Malmö FF to play in the Swedish league again after 10 years. This year he captained Malmö FF who won their first Swedish league (Allsvenskan) title in 15 years. He has twice been awarded Guldbollen as the Swedish footballer of the year, in 1995 and 2001. After suffering yet another knee injury during a Champions League qualifier against Swiss team FC Thun on 10 August 2005, Andersson announced his retirement from professional football on 12 August 2005. He was appointed as Manchester United's scout in Scandinavia in August 2010.
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So, again, as in previous examples, he needed 2-3 years to return to form after his original knee injury and when he returned to form, he suffered ANOTHER knee injury and finished his career.

So, to some extent, if we remove emotions, these are our options:
1. if Umtiti will play awesome and we sell him=Fine. We will still have at least 3 World class CBs
2. if Umtiti will need 2-3 years to return to his level and we sell him=we didn't lose much, since we will have 3 World class CBs
3. if Umtiti will never return to his level=selling is a good option. We will still have 3 World class CBs.

So, even in a situation if he will reach his old level and never suffer another knee injury:
1. we will still have 3 good CBs
2. it will take years or months to reach his old level
3. in between, he will suffer lots of random muscle, groin and thigh injuries

I don't have anything against Umtiti, btw.
I am just saying, that if we'll sign De Light, we will have too many CBs.
And since Umtiti's health is questionable, selling is quite obvious.

Currently he is like Vermaelen, Reus, Gundogan.
A player who had a horrible injury.
Maybe he'll return to his form, maybe he won't.
This is why we have a lower price for him, 50M instead of 80M or 100M.
 
Last edited:
Z

Zidane82

Well-known member
Havesaks said:
Because they see him as a obstacle for a new shiny toy; de ligt. And then rationalize him to be a broken toy, because he has had some knee injuries.
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He refused surgery and has been out for ages .. can’t think of any other instance of a player overriding a club’s medical team .

Plus he could presumably suffer a setback or worse anytime in the future .

I’d sell him just because of the uncertainty.
 
i_bleed_blaugrana

i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
BBZ8800 said:
As always, I will pull a "we don't know in which state a player is or how he performs currently every day on training grounds due to an injury" card.

Here on forum, maybe the situation is closer to: let's give him a chance, the injury was not that bad.
Maybe on training grounds it is: he is at 70-80% of what he used to be. Ok, needs time but it is very questionable whether he will reach even close to his old level.
If he gets injured again, he won't reach that level.
If he won't get injured, who knows when will he reach that level and whether he will reach it at all.

For younger fans, for example, Xavi handled well his knee injury when he was 25 and turned into a Goat midfielder later.
On the other hand, Thiago Motta suffered a knee injury in 2004, aged 22 and was never the same player.
He missed the whole 2004-05 season and in the next 2 seasons had 14 and 15 league appearances due to heavy competition and him not being at the 100% level.
In 2007, we sold him to Atletico, and you can see a quote:


So, in Motta's case:
He was injured in a September of 2004.
Returned in May 2005.
Then he was ok or not at his best for the next 2 seasons due to not playing for 1 year.
And when he returned to form, in 2007-08, at Atletico, he had several random injuries and in March, he injured his knee again and his season was over. He was out of 3 Months.
After that he had a lots of minor muscle, calf and similar injuries.
When he signed for Inter, in 2010 he had another knee injury and had to undergo Arthroscopie and missed 2 Months.
In the next 365 days after that knee operation, he had 5 RANDOM unrelated injuries which happened again because he was off field for a long time: overstretching, fatigue fracture, overstretching again, muscular problems.
Then he had a few okish years at Psg, and it 2017-18 season he again had: 1 knee injury for 20 days. 2 weeks after returning from that injury, he had another knee injury for 40 days. After returning from that injury, only 30 days later, he got another injury and missed 30 days again.

So, with huge knee injuries:
1. they will often repeat during player's career
2. even when you'll return, you won't be your old self or you will need years to reach that level
3. and between 2 knee injuries, you will suffer 10s of random muscle, groin and calf injuries.

Other examples: Rafinha and his knee and random injuries after that.
Gabriel Milito.
He had a good first season playing 42 matches.
Then he got injured, missed 602 days with a knee injury.
And played only 33 matches for Barca combined in 2008/09, 2009/10 and 2010/11 seasons.
He played one season in Argentina after that and retired.
So, Milito NEVER returned to form after his knee injury aged 27.

For younger fans, we had a Swedish CB Patrik Anderson in early 00's.
He came here from Bayern, aged 30, injured his knee in a first season and after the injury, played only 7+5 matches in the next 2 seasons.
After that, he returned to his home, to Sweden and:


So, again, as in previous examples, he needed 2-3 years to return to form after his original knee injury and when he returned to form, he suffered ANOTHER knee injury and finished his career.

So, to some extent, if we remove emotions, these are our options:
1. if Umtiti will play awesome and we sell him=Fine. We will still have at least 3 World class CBs
2. if Umtiti will need 2-3 years to return to his level and we sell him=we didn't lose much, since we will have 3 World class CBs
3. if Umtiti will never return to his level=selling is a good option. We will still have 3 World class CBs.

So, even in a situation if he will reach his old level and never suffer another knee injury:
1. we will still have 3 good CBs
2. it will take years or months to reach his old level
3. in between, he will suffer lots of random muscle, groin and thigh injuries

I don't have anything against Umtiti, btw.
I am just saying, that if we'll sign De Light, we will have too many CBs.
And since Umtiti's health is questionable, selling is quite obvious.

Currently he is like Vermaelen, Reus, Gundogan.
A player who had a horrible injury.
Maybe he'll return to his form, maybe he won't.
This is why we have a lower price for him, 50M instead of 80M or 100M.
Click to expand...

If he isn’t the same player, it’s really simple: bench him for Lenglet next season and sell him in January 2019/next summer.

It makes 0 sense to me to project his career path based on other players who have had similar injuries and prematurely sell him. Like, are we just going to dump any player in the squad when they have a long-term injury? We should treat our players better than that, especially someone as talented as him and particularly when you look at what he gave us in the past. He’s earned the right to have another season here on that merit alone.

Again, we bought him for either 25 or 35 from Lyon. Even if he isn’t the same next season, I still think we’d get our money back plus a little extra if it doesn’t work out next season.

This isn’t hard, we are wayyyy overthinking this and honestly, with Umtiti, de Ligt & Pique, we could comfortably rock 3-Back systems, which for me is another reason to keep Umtiti irrespective of if de Ligt comes.

If we need transfer funds, players like Raki, Gomes, Denis and maybe Malcom should go before Umtiti, anyways.
 
H

Havesaks

Senior Member
Zidane82 said:
He refused surgery and has been out for ages .. can’t think of any other instance of a player overriding a club’s medical team .

Plus he could presumably suffer a setback or worse anytime in the future .

I’d sell him just because of the uncertainty.
Click to expand...

Surgery is always a last resort, there are always risk involved and him refusing it is certainly because he thought that was the best solution. He has probably been advised against it by some doctors, while the club has been advised to do it. Its unusual but its not that big of a deal imo. Both parties have his best interests in mind but different opinions how to solve the problem. We will never know if he chose right, but if he know never will look back - he probably didn't chose wrong. I can't really see how him refusing surgery is an argument for selling him.

He is a wild card, and I do get the reasoning to sell him for a low price, but Im still against it.
 
Raketa10

Raketa10

Senior Member
We are idiots if we sell him even if we sign De Ligt. The only thing I am worried about is his knee but if he is fine than he has to stay. Pique maybe has one more season on this level and after that we'll have 3 WC centre backs (Umtiti-Lenglet-De Ligt) for years to go.
 
Joan

Joan

Well-known member
Raketa10 said:
We are idiots if we sell him even if we sign De Ligt. The only thing I am worried about is his knee but if he is fine than he has to stay. Pique maybe has one more season on this level and after that we'll have 3 WC centre backs (Umtiti-Lenglet-De Ligt) for years to go.
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His knee is a total unknown for us online fans. Journos too. That will be the deciding factor, I feel.

This match could shed some light on the situation. If Umtiti and Lenglet can play successfully together...
 
Alik

Alik

Moderator
Raketa10 said:
We are idiots if we sell him even if we sign De Ligt. The only thing I am worried about is his knee but if he is fine than he has to stay. Pique maybe has one more season on this level and after that we'll have 3 WC centre backs (Umtiti-Lenglet-De Ligt) for years to go.
Click to expand...

That's no small thing to be worried about.
 
Saladin

Saladin

Active member
Alik said:
That's no small thing to be worried about.
Click to expand...

We should sell him now for the big bucks; Pique has another top season in him, De Ligt and Lenglet could be a strong partnership with Todibo a potential special talent (unlikely, but we would be well covered in the back with FDJ also available if shit hits the fan).

He is nowhere near his pre-WC self (given, he has been out for a long time but his knee issues is a slippery slope).
 
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