FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
Well said. Our team has no movement. Arthur provides that.
Arthur
- Thread starter Jair Ventura
- Start date
Well said. Our team has no movement. Arthur provides that.
What's the point in useless, sometimes even detrimental movement?
I have to say that the thought of seeing Arthur playing with FDJ and backed by Busqs is mouthwatering . I think that Frankie can extend Busqs Barca career by another two years at least .
Gnidrologist
Senior Member
Any movement is better than no movement and ball circulation > no circulation. He is also good at carrying the ball forward, when he decides to. How dense do you have to be to not understand that. Anyone who watched Barca both with and without Arthur on the field somehow noticed that except you and probably BBZ. When he is in good form we have lot of possession and lot of it is productive, creating action through the central part where Messi loves to be. Vidal is good as a hound dog as has been said, but our play with him is much more chaotic and risky although i agree that it's a viable plan B. With only Rakki and Busi as creative forces we have static team that move the ball around the premieter and back forcing Messi to drop into our own half and do everything by himself. I don't want to see this again.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I have said something similar a few weeks ago, but on every remark on our young players with potential, you will get insults.
And if you are right, you will need to adress this topic at least 1000 times, before a few other guys will start to notice the same and then the opinion will slowly start to be accepted.
I have mentioned that lately Busi started to ignore Arthur in some matches and gestured him: move away from me or go there and there.
Basically, at Camp Nou, against weaker teams, Busi would have the ball and he would have Rakitic, Roberto, Arthur, Alba, Pique, Lenglet all free and unmarked.
And no opponents were around Arthur, Raki, Roberto, Alba.
Let's say that Busi had the ball.
And Rakitic and Arthur were 10 meters far from him with NO opponents between Busi and them.
And Alba was 20 meters away from Busi on the left with no opponents around him.
The same with Roberto on the right.
So, the passing lanes were free and unmarked.
So, basically, Busi could make a simple pass to any of those:
Arthur 10 meters away
Raki 10 meters away
Roberto 20 meters away
Alba 20 meters away.
And THEN, for no logical reason, Arthur leaves his advanced (unmarked) position to drop deep to Busi's position and asks for a ball.
If Busi gives him the ball, Arthur would do 1 out of these 2 things:
1. Take the ball from Busi, make 2-3 steps, turn around himself and pass the ball BACK to Busi, lol
2. Or, he would take the ball from Busi, look at Alba who is free all the time, and then he would run with the ball (with NO OPPONENTS around him) towards Alba and when he would get close to him: he would pass the ball to Alba.
In short, what has Arthur achieved in this action?
Absolutely nothing.
1. In the first example, he has just slowed down the play, took the ball from Busi for no reason and passed it back to him and didn't offer anything in terms of attacking progression.
He just offered more possession and more touches in the area where no one is pressuring us. Plus our build up lost around 10 seconds and we gave more time to the opponents to get back into their defensive shape.
2. In the 2nd example, Busi was able to pass to free and unmarked Raki, Arthur, Roberto and Alba and since Arthur has left his position to come close to Busi, to take the ball and run with the ball towards unmarked Alba, in that way Arthur basically took Busi's position, doubled Busi's passing lane and instead of 11 players, we had 10 players in that moment since Arthur occupied Busi's position for no logical reason and left him with less passing options than 10 seconds ago.
So, 10 seconds ago, we had 11 players occupying different positions (when Busi, Arthur and Raki were 10 meters from eachother).
And Busi had 4 free passing options in: Arthur, Raki, Roberto and Alba.
When Arthur moved back towards Busi and occupied his area, Busi (or a player occupying his position) suddenly lost 4 advanced passing options and now has only 3 good options (Raki, Roberto, Alba).
What Arthur is doing in these moments is: oh, Busi, you don't have to pass the ball to Alba or Roberto.
I will come into your space, take the ball from you and I will pass the ball to them, even though you could have done EXACTLY the same by yourself.
For the end, even worse, Arthur will take the ball from our player and then just release it to the next guy closest to him.
Guys here are talking about smart possession and movement, but from the early days, I have a feeling that Arthur's natural instincts are NOT: let's progress the ball forward with our possession play but more like: we are playing rondos. Our goal is to have as many touches as possible, to make as many simple passes to the closest teammate as possible. The goal of our game is: not allow the opponent to EVER touch the ball. Keep the ball at the half line for 15 minutes if needed.
As said, at first I have seen Busi ignoring Arthur and telling him to move away from him and to take some free, more advanced position.
In matches after that, even Pique started to do the same.
Basically, what Arthur don't get currently: if we play against RM, who is pressuring us, then it is a good thing to drop deep and do everything at what he is good at (getting the ball out of our half, press resistance, playing rondos).
But if we are playing against a team who parked a bus and sits deep, let's say Espanyol at home, then if Arthur is playing the same as against RM, he is hurting us.
Also, about the example which I described earlier: when Busi has a free passing lane towards Alba, but Arthur drops back, takes the ball, run with a ball towards Alba and then passes to Alba...
That is quite similar to when Neymar was slowing down our play.
Remember that case: Neymar gets the ball at a LW position. He can pass the ball to free teammate right away.
But Neymar stops, looks at the opponent, makes 3 stepovers over the ball. He hadn't beat an opponent and THEN after 15 seconds, he passes a ball to a teammate.
So, that action should have looked like this:
Neymar gets the ball, Neymar passes the ball to a free teammate 2 seconds later.
What Neymar actually did?
Neymar gets the ball, does unneeded stepovers, gets nothing from them and then passes the ball to a teammate 13 seconds too late.
So, Neymar achieved nothing with his stepovers, he did THE SAME what should have been done in the first place in a simpler way, and he has just complicated and slowed down our play and ADDED a few unneeded extra steps between two simple passes.
What Arthur is doing often is quite similar.
Getting into areas and passing lanes of our teammates, adding few extra touches and passing to a player to whom Busi would have passed in the first place.
This doesn't mean that Arthur doesn't have good sides.
But not too many want to hear about his flaws.
I mentioned how he is the weakest defender yesterday. He had 11 interceptions in a whole season.
Gnidro replied: Cr7 has more goals than Messi.
And now Goodkid, you are trying to argue with fans claiming that a favorite Arthur has some flaws.
As said, you will need to write 995 more posts until more guys will start to realize the same.
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serghei
Senior Member
Let's agree to disagree then.
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] it is no surprise that you don't understand how the possession system works since you hate it so much, and spend so much time berating it with every chance you get.
It is hard to get interested and find out things such as tactics and football theories about things you hate and don't care about. Hence your uninformed opinions on the matter.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Cool.
You replied absolutely nothing about Arthur entering Busi's area for no reason.
I am not saying that Arthur don't have 100s of good virtues.
But I have a feeling sometimes on this forum that we are in a twillight zone, or brainwashed or a cult following place.
A person A says: Arthur is bad in interceptions.
100 other users reply: but he is press resistant, lol.
A person B: he seems to have stamina issues.
100 other users: you are an idiot! He is our only press resistant player!
Person C: he is taking Busi's position.
100 users, you know the answer: but he IS press resistant.
Wtf, is this some psychological experiment, lol?
Fine, we get it, he is press resistant.
Can we move to discussing other areas?
Or your brains don't allow you those things?
Serghei, what is your explanation about Arthur's extremely low number of interceptions over the whole season?
serghei
Senior Member
What's the point? I would lose 2 hours of my weekend with images and videos and such, and you would still believe he is a back passer who can't intercept.
I'd be like an atheist citing Carl Sagan and trying to explain to the Christian that the Universe wasn't made in 7 days by a magic man.
I'd be like an atheist citing Carl Sagan and trying to explain to the Christian that the Universe wasn't made in 7 days by a magic man.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I asked about low number of interceptions.
I get it, he is press resistant.
How about an actual question?
serghei
Senior Member
Depends on what you call interception? You think intercepting the ball is done by a single player? Winning the ball back in the times of Guardiola was a team tactic. Not a player role. And before saying that was Guardiola, and shouldn't be viewed as a model, well, in defense, he kind of did usual stuff. Pressing, blocking passing options, things that are normal for any team who wants to defend in another way than just put 10 men behind the ball in a low block, which I guess you can say it means normal defending these days (Zidane, Valverde, Mourinho, Simeone, Allegri, all use this).
Back to what is an interception. Consider this scenario:
If say Arthur presses a player, or he cuts down his best passing options by off the ball movement and intensity (which are his best attributes, and why he is subbed at min.60 mark, man runs a lot and closes a lot of passing options for the other team), and Rakitic gets the ball, the merit for winning the ball is not Rakitic's alone, but also Arthur's. Somewhere in those stats you like to post, that is lost.
In possession football, an interception, or turn of possession vs top teams is usually a 3-part job (or more). Hence the old and true saying, turned into a cliche, that football is a team sport. Every aspect of football is done as a team.
1) pressurize the ball carrier so that he has to make a passing decision
2) cut down the main and best passing options by way of smart positioning and intensity
1 and 2 done right makes the ball carrier do one of these two actions:
a) recycle possession, which is basically a form of giving the passing initiative to another player, but a player who is positioned worse than him, which is still a gain for the defending team (the one trying to get the ball back, intercept it as you call it)
b) make the pass in bad conditions (as in marked teammates, passes with low chances of completion, fancy dribbles etc), and those bad conditions basically mean very high chances of losing the ball.
everytime b) happens (and will happen if the defending team applies 1 and 2 the right way) we get to:
3) get the ball back when the pass is made into an area that you control.
The player who gets the 3) part is the one who is credited by stats as the one who got the ball back, but in most cases the players involved in 1) and 2) are equally important.
Arthur is often involved in the 2) part. No credit whatsoever.
A player like Vidal is a monster because, due to his athletic abilities, aggression, and defensive quality can do both 1) and 3) at the same time.
What do ball winners actually do that is so valuable? They press the player who has the ball in such a good way, that the player already panics and turns the ball. Takes time away from them singlehandedly and forces them into mistakes.
The 'stats illusion' is that a stat defines a purpose (scoring a goal, making an assist, making an interception), but it ties that purpose to a single player, who gets the stat. But in fact, there is a whole sequence of events who make the purpose achievable. And the guy who gets the stat, while having a very important contribution, is not the only factor.
You think and say things as if a game is made of 11 individuals who play next to each other and all bring up their individual game. But in many systems, especially in the positional possession system, the football is not like that. Which is why you have issues understanding and appreciating for players who connect the game and bond the passes together, or players who are good at using movement and position to defend, not muscles and tackles. Watch what the Brazil manager said about Arthur, that he is a facilitator, who connects his teammates with his passing and movement. Makes them reach each other better while playing possession football. You just don't care for this type of football, something odd for a Barca fan, but while not caring for it you blame players for things you don't understand (because you don't care).
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That's simply wrong. If you are in a good position don't leave it, except when you know someone else will take it up. Also, it's not hard to be better in possession than Vidal. Doesn't make you good at it either.
serghei
Senior Member
You can and should adjust to a better position if the passing channel is blocked by an opponent. We're talking about a radius of a few meters. It's not like you move from your position to another position and create disarray. Far from that. You still play in the same position, but make the adjustments to get in possession. This is the basics of shaking off your markers to advance the play. No sane player moves if he is open and ready to receive. They move so they CAN receive because there is an obstacle in the way if they stay immobile.
The way you speak it's like off the ball movement doesn't even matter to you. Everyone should stay put and wait for the ball to get them. In this way, you never get the ball moving forward. This is the main issue with teams who have 75% possession and manage to create 2 chances. Valverde suffers from this issue too. Not enough off the ball movement which means the ball does progress the way it should. Which is probably why Valverde possession play is average at best, with very few chances generated without the individual genius of Messi.
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Why receive the ball when it is not beneficial for your team?
And no, I'm all for off the ball movement but more like in guardiola teams where the players move in tandem with each other.
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serghei
Senior Member
It is always beneficial to the team to receive the ball between the lines, free of markers, hence why the importance of fluidity and off the ball movement in possession football. It is not beneficial for a midfielder to hide away behind markers and play a lot of stale possession into areas where the opponents want you to play.
In modern game, against good teams, spaces don't become available by themselves. You have to create them my moving. When spaces become available too easily, it's usually because the opponents are bad, we're playing on the counter where there is more space (but defense and counter is not possession football anymore), or Messi made something happen on his own. That's Valverde's football. In possession we're kind of useless without Messi.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
A classical interception, by Whoscored where the main defensive skills are:
1. tackles
2. interceptions
3. clearances with headers
4. and blocks
Regarding the part where you say: Arthur will pressure an opponent, an opponent will be be forced to make a bad pass, Rakitic will come and intercept the pass and get all the glory.
I posted an Occam's razor principle a few days ago.
Here you have 2 solutions:
1. Arthur is actually awesome in defending, but 1000 things happen in between and it always somehow end up that all his teammates (Coutinho included) have more interceptions at the end of the day than him
2. or, the other, simplest solution: Arthur just sucks in interceptions.
About the eye test, I posted in Arthur's first weeks, before I was able to know these poor defensive stats since there was no stats about his defensive play yet since he just came: when I watched him defend, I have said:
1) he is good in tackles, but imo, you have 2 types of tackles:
a) first type: let's say Raki has the ball in Espanyol's half and makes a bad pass around their box.
A player 1 from Espanyol takes the ball, and 2-3 of our players try to make classical Pep's pressure on an opponent right away.
In these situations Arthur is good, and on my eye test (and stats will confirm the same), he has a nice amount of tackles, especially these "attacking/pressure" tackles in the opponent's half when we try to return the ball back immidiately. So, he is good in these "attacking tackles".
b) but then, you have another type of tackles. WHEN an oppponent is having possession in OUR HALF, around our box.
Let's say RM/City is passing the ball in our half and we are defending deep around our box.
In these type of planned and organized actions, you can't make "a fast tackle" like in the previous example.
Here, you need to be patient, close down the opponents all the time, not lose your position and eventually, in the right moment, make a tackle or INTERCEPTION of their passes.
Imo, on my eye test, Arthur is quite meh in this part, when the opponents are playing an organized, slow, action in our half.
Further, imo, majority of interceptions are happening in these times also.
We are sitting deep in our half, and we need to wait, read the game and anticipate.
So, my personal eye test said this after a few matches: Arthur is good in fast/pressure tackles IN THE OPPONENT's half.
But is weak in tackles in OUR HALF against organized attacks and in INTERCEPTIONS in our half, again against organized attacks.
And now, after 40-50 matches, stats from Whoscored are confirming exactly what my eye test has seen in autumn.
And look, if my eye test, these stats and my theory are true, that doesn't mean that Arthur is bad.
It just means that he is a weaker defender than some other guys.
In matches where you don't need defense, he is still a better option due to things which he can offer (possession) than defensive guys.
But what pisses me, is that majority of guys act offended if you dare to say that Arthur has a flaw, lol.
Look, Messi is a GOAT, and yet he has lot of flaws like: causing tactical problems for our 3 man attack, someone has to babysit for him, he is lazy in defending, he is sulking sometimes, he doesn't want to rest.
Does that mean that Messi is a bad player?
No. He is still a Goat. But with his flaws...
The same about Arthur or any other player, since 90% of people are posting only about good things, there needs to be some posts about negative things and flaws to bring people down to Earth.
Further, something related to this, there is a story about one musician who had his new album released and out of 10 reviews in random magazines, 9 reviews were good and singing praises about him.
And there was one bad review.
A musician said: I didn't even bother to read good reviews about my new album. What can I learn from those reviews? Absolutely nothing.
People will just write: you were so good, the album is so good, everything is good, everything is perfect.
I can't learn or gain ANYTHING from those overly positive reviews.
On the other hand, BAD REVIEWS are what am I interested in.
Some of those are a pure garbage, but in some I can learn really valuable things about my flaws and they give me a lot of things to think about in the future.
So, you see, Arthur or any other player, if everyone will be licking his ass and saying: everything is good, he will never improve.
If someone will actually tell him: dude, your defending sucks currently, try to improve and learn.
Or, dude, your stamina is weak. You need to work on it during this summer and try to change your diet, you will be a better player.
Or, dude, your passing game is good, but don't come into Busi's area, try to play a little faster and try to play more direct passes and through balls, even if it means losing possession, it doesn't matter.
You see, if no one (fans, friends, coaches) will point to flaws, a player will never think about it, learn and improve further.
Or regarding Dembele.
Is it better for him and his career to have friends like that Maxim4 user around him, who will reply: you are good, everything is good, people are idiots=to every problem.
Or guys like me, who will whine about his diet, playing playstation, being late on trainings, having horrible decisions and similar.
Only if you'll shit on player's flaws, a player or someone around him will tell him to improve those things.
I am not saying that fans are responsible for player's improvement, but you get the point.
1. majority of posts on this forum are miles away from reality and people act as if they are living on some clouds, creating some false, overhyped reality of our young players
2. plus, as said: with that type of posts and behavior with licking their asses, you will never force your darlings to actually improve and become twice as players as they are now
So, don't be so emotional about negative remarks, especially if they make sense.
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