Basketball/NBA

[khaled_a_d]

All due respect, I disagree.

1) MJ didn't rely on 3pts, because his mid-range was at jedi level. So was Kobe, Kawhi and DeRozan, who emulated down the line. It's not because MJ was terrible at 3pt. His average is 32%, which is close to current league average. FYI Steph Curry is at 39.7. Which is insane, but also meaning even he still misses every 2.5 attempts.

2) The whole theory of 35% from 3pt vs. 45% 2pt in the 90's is nonsense. Because starting from 2004-05 NBA banned hand-checking outside the 3pt line perimiter. NBA needed 100+ points games for ratings and they unleashed the beast that in the end made the product extremely dull to watch. Without the hand-check rule Team Curry wins vs. Team Jordan. But with hand-check ON I'm all in on Team Jordan.

3) Charles Barkley didn't play with twice the fat compared to Luka. Chuck was fat in his rookie year and the veteran Houston Rockets days. Between those he averaged 11-12 years between 250 pounds to fit his PF role, which btw fat Luka reached in Dallas. If you check how explosive Charles Barkley was in that "fat" body you'd eat your words out. Nothing Luka could ever achieve in athletism.

1)I've already addressed it, MJ was anomaly in his mid-game. He was the best that has ever been. He wasn't good 3 pt shooter either, that is still a fact. He played the right way for him.

Derozen was an average "star", he isn't a guy you build a contender around, because of his style. Kobe was in between eras, but he averaged both better 3 pt percent and far more attempts than MJ, and it was for a good reason, MJ always averaged more than 50% on his 2pt attempts, Kobe rarely did, while he was 35%+ in 3pt. In other words, Kobe 3 pt shot was more effective than his 2 pt. And that's why he shot more. MJ was the opposite, his 2 pt was more efficient.

The number of attempts that is missed, was exactly the stupidity of that era. It is about efficency, it isn't who puts more FG but who scores more points. This is what they missed.

2) Oh, the good old hand check argument. It has already been disputed, like the stupid argument of 90's physicality. Players suffer far more uncalled fouls now than back on the 90's, and even without counting hand check. Hand check made an increase during the in-between eras in the early 2000's, until the take over from players entering the league between 07 and afterwards. The league actually allows a lot of bs but had to limit things to protect players from injuries. People miss the fights and dirty acts of the 90's, not the physicality.

The top 25 offensive efficency ratings in the history, belongs to teams in the 2020's, all of them. To attribute something that happened twenty years ago for that

Hand check eased attacking the basket, but improved shooting and increased attempts are the reasons of the spike. Back then, Dirk was an anomaly for being a PF that shoots threes, now teams prefer a center who shoots them.



And 2017 Warriors destroy any team in the history of the NBA, anyone arguing against it is in delulu.

3 + your next post) I am questioning your reading skills here. Barkley was a legend, same was Stockton. That is EXACTLY MY POINT. MJ wasn't the standards back in the day, niether was Shaq, just like Giannis and Ant aren't the standards for superstar athletic ability today. Players being deceptive and able to change directions worked in both eras, players playing through extra weight happened in both era.

Luka is 6'7 barefoot, Barkley was 6'6 in shoes. And Luka always slimmed down during the season anyway, he was rarely in bad shape coming playoffs, even in Euros he was usually well, but gained weight in the time between international tournaments and preseason.

And Luka had to play internationally every year, Barkley did it twice.

So back to my reply, which was addressing how Luka is succeeding in this era in comparison to MJ in previous eras, it is because it wasn't players of MJ physical standards that were stars, there was different types and abilities.

 

[Windhook]

1)I've already addressed it, MJ was anomaly in his mid-game. He was the best that has ever been. He wasn't good 3 pt shooter either, that is still a fact. He played the right way for him.

Derozen was an average "star", he isn't a guy you build a contender around, because of his style. Kobe was in between eras, but he averaged both better 3 pt percent and far more attempts than MJ, and it was for a good reason, MJ always averaged more than 50% on his 2pt attempts, Kobe rarely did, while he was 35%+ in 3pt. In other words, Kobe 3 pt shot was more effective than his 2 pt. And that's why he shot more. MJ was the opposite, his 2 pt was more efficient.

The number of attempts that is missed, was exactly the stupidity of that era. It is about efficency, it isn't who puts more FG but who scores more points. This is what they missed.

2) Oh, the goid old habd check argument. It has already been disputed, like the stupid argument of 90's physicality. Players suffer far more uncalled fouls now than back on the 90's, and even without counting hand check. Hand check made an influc during an in between eras in the early 2000's, until the take over from players entering the league between 07 and afterwards. The league actually allows a lot of bs but have to limit things to protect players from injuries.

The top 25 offensive efficency ratings in the history, belongs to teams in the 2020's, all of them. To attribute something that happened twenty years ago for that

Hand check eased attacking the basket, but improved shooting and increased attempts are the reasons of the spike. Back then, Dirk was an anomaly for being a PF that shoots threes, now teams prefer a center who shoots them.



And 2017 Warriors destroy any team in the history of the NBA, anyone arguing against it is in delulu.

3 + your next post) I am questioning your reading skills here. Barkley was a legend, same was Stockton, both were EXACTLY MY POINT. MJ wasn't the standards back in the day, niether was Shaq, just like Giannis and Ant aren't the standards for superstar athletic ability today. Players being deceptive and able to change directions worked in both eras, players playing through extra weight happened in both era.

Luka is 6'7 barefoot, Barkley was 6'6 in shoes. And Luka always slimmed down during the season anyway, he was rarely in bad shape coming playoffs, even in Euros he was usually well, but gained weight in the time between international tournaments and preseason.

And Luka had to play internationally every year, Barkley did it twice.

So back to my reply, which was addressing how Luka us succeeding in this era in comparison to MJ in previous eras, it ss because it wasn't players of MJ physical standards that were stars, there was different types and abilities.

I deleted my comment out of not causing another argument. Everyone entitled to their opinion. But okay. Let's dive again into this.

1) MJ was not a bad 3pt shooter, he didn't employ it, because 90's basketball didn't demand it as there were only a handful of great shooters. And I agree, 3pt line got introduced in 1979 and the worst team doing it were the Lakers in 1982 with 10% success. It took a generation to improve on accuracy.

2) Hand check rule is induspitable change. Whoever wants to dispute it is welcome to prove a point. It's like in football taking a penalty for an indirect FK with wall against.

3) Go read back what you said

The 90's basketball won't stand a chance against current teams regardless of the rules, current teams are smarter, better shooter, more skilled and actually bigger and overall more athletic. It isn't like J Kidd and Stockton for example were athletic freaks, Barkley had twice the fat percentage of Luka and was dominant.

Not about my reading skills. In short you said current NBA is better, because Jason Kidd, John Stockton and Charles Barkley were not the physique required to play in the current league. On the contrary they did it in a more physical and athletic era than the current.

 

[khaled_a_d]

3) Go read back what you said

Not about my reading skills. In short you said current NBA is better, because Jason Kidd, John Stockton and Charles Barkley were not the physique required to play in the current league. On the contrary they did it in a more physical and athletic era than the current.

You absolutely misunderstood the point mate. This isn't what I said.

The original argument was "Luka won't make ut back then", I am saying he would, because there was players like Kidd, Stockton, Barkley who had their iwn limitations physically and were still legends. I didn't comment on how they would fare today.

And past era wasn't better physically, players spent millions today on their bodies. You think all that money flushed in the toilets? They simply have access to things that weren't there.

And yes, MJ was bad 3pt shooter by current numbers. League average at worst year was 34.9% and shooting 2% below it is literally bad, and makes it inefficient shot.

Edit:

MJ was not a bad 3pt shooter, he didn't employ it,

This is also my point btw, as I said previously, MJ was anomaly, his 2 pt shooting was unmatched for a guard/wing, he put up numbers that a C would be proud of. OTOH his 3PT wasn't on the same level, you want to call it average/below average or use whatever word, ok.
But for someone who was that good in midrange, his 3pt wasn't nearly as efficient, by a mile. For that he was anomaly as he is one of the rare perimeter players in history to make the worst shot in basketball, being very good. That wasn't the same for Kobe, at all, and it is why he used the three far more.


Dirk & Don Nelson, then Curry & Kerr, has changed the way we see basketball in unmatched way. The skills now is just insane, the analytics force players to choose only the best shots for themselves and the team.

 

[Gnidrologist]

If MJ would've focused on 3p shooting for all his career like 90% of current b-ballers do, i'm sure he would be fine. Even all the tall guys are now honing them. My compatriot Porzingis, who is like one of the tallest players around shoot more 3s than 2s most of the time despite having great mid range and incredible height advantage and very good agility for such macaroni that would allow him to dominate the paint if given such goal. That's a systemic trend, not some magical improvement on shooting in current times. MJ took pleasure in nailing incredibly complex faid away jumper 2 pointers that were often shot couple meters short of 3-point line, while being aggressively pressed by a big guy and you think he couldn't shoot long balls from statuary pose, while nobody is allowed to touch him? Laughable. He would probably be bored to death, if his coach instructed him to such shit. Shooting 3s in todays game is like shooting free throws. Most pro bballers are at least decent at them. There's no sudden magic growth of shooting techniques developed over a decade that makes this 3point back and forth frenzy possible. It's a manufactured gimmick.