10 - Ansu Fati

serghei

Senior Member
Dembele, has injury problems. Jury's out on Arthur so far. Halilovic and Alena were young players that may succeed or not. It's not any wild bet to assume young players don't make it. Most don't make it, or else we'd have 100 world class players floating around.

Anyway, you just assume all young players don't make it, based on the initial probability that they don't. Only after they become stars you rate them.

If you have flair about these things, name 10 young players who are not stars like Haaland and Mbappe who you think will make it big. Let's see in 5-6 years how many you got right.

You clearly think Fati and Lautaro won't make it. They will be the next Alexis (although Alexis did make it actually, since being in the team of the season in Premier League and leading your NT to two back to back historic Copa Americas is making it). Tell us who would in your book.
 
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BBZ8800

Senior Member
You clearly think Fati and Lautaro won't make it. They will be the next Alexis (although Alexis did make it actually, since being in the team of the season in Premier League and leading your NT to two back to back historic Copa Americas is making it). Tell us who would in your book.

The point is: if a probability to win on a lottery is 0.00001 or whatever, why getting your hopes up everytime you buy a ticket?

With young players, everyone who has read even this forum for 3-4-5 years have figured out till now that probably 90% of all young talents fail.
And historically, only around 30% of Barca signings, no matter whether they are big or unknown players, make it here.

Now, if a chance for Trincao making it here is 10%.
And if the same applies for Fati, then am I crazy when I am not too impressed or majority of you who enter into the same infinity loop each summer?

Each summer, we have 2-3 new kids and 2-3 new signings.
And the same story happens.

When I used to say that in 3-4 years only 1-2 out of Dembele, Malcom, Semedo, Arthur, Alena will be here, you guys laughed.

In the end, in 4 years after that post, probably none of them will be here.
What a shock...

I could write the same: in 4 years, probably none of Ansu and Trincao will be here.
Or 1 of them will be here in some role, if we'll be lucky.

Those are general stats, not looking at particular players.

About particular players, I actually kinda like Trincao for now.
I only think that you guys are going overboard with overhyping and hopes about him.

About Fati, I am not impressed.
I know that he is young, but he has those Dembele&Alexis moments in each match where he is either a genius or he is tripping over the ball.

Plus, the same as with Dembele, in my opinion, probably 90% of all time greats forwards had that killer-leader-cocky mentality.
Like Cr7, Ronaldinho, Etoo, Zlatan, Henry, Batistuta, R9, Ruud or even Neymar.
I just don't have too high hopes in a forward who acts like a too shy, nice, too humble guy.
I don't know is it a cultural thing in Catalonia or what, but majority of La Masia players act like choir boys.
Look at the latest products in Puig and Fati.

Fati could work if he'll develop well, but then he would need to have two braver guys like Ronaldinho and Etoo besides him.

People will mention Messi as a shy guy, but he had GOAT skills.
And even a GOAT suffers from sulking in too many away CL matches.
Now imagine a too nice, shy attacker who doesn't have Goat skills.
How will he lead us in tough moments?

So, since a lot of you asked why am I not impressed by Ansu, here you have:
1. I have huge question marks about his footballing skills
2. And his personality doesn't look like the best fit for the supposed future Barca leader.

On the other hand, look at cockiness and bravery of Halaand and Mbappe, for example.
They do have both footballing and mental ingredients to be superstars.
Ansu is miles away in both areas.

He could turn into a squad player or a starter.
But imo, you are overhyping him.

He is young.
Maybe he'll improve a lot and gain more bravery and leadership skills (in terms of being a leader of an attacking line of one of the best clubs in the world).

If I would have to make a premature wild guess, I would say in this moment that he won't make it or that his ceiling will be Gabriel Jesus type of an attacker.
He isn't too fast, he isn't a huge aerial threat, his shooting power is meh.
He looks like a good link up-allrounder with a good sense of getting into good positions inside of a box.
 
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Vilarrubi

New member
I was thinking about another recent talented La Masia winger that did have a good amount of hype but decided to take a gamble and leave elsewhere in hopes of success early and that is Jordi Mboula.

I know it's early but an interesting contrast between Fati and Mboula, one ended up staying and got a chance of a lifetime at 16 and made every use of it and will be a first team player while the other went to Monaco and ended up suffering injuries and ended up being in loan hell because he wasn't rated enough to stay at Monaco.

This probably didn’t help long term... People thinking he’s gonna play like this all the time surely added pressure on him, class goal though.

 

Slevinn

Senior Member
I was thinking about another recent talented La Masia winger that did have a good amount of hype but decided to take a gamble and leave elsewhere in hopes of success early and that is Jordi Mboula.

I know it's early but an interesting contrast between Fati and Mboula, one ended up staying and got a chance of a lifetime at 16 and made every use of it and will be a first team player while the other went to Monaco and ended up suffering injuries and ended up being in loan hell because he wasn't rated enough to stay at Monaco.
He played a half season here in Belgium. :lol:

It was very painful to see him ?play?.
 

Birdy

Senior Member
And historically, only around 30% of Barca signings, no matter whether they are big or unknown players, make it here.
Why do you have to postulate a historical average (which by the way we don't even know if accurate) as if it is an unshakable law of nature?
It's not gravity. It can change with better planning and better decision.
Look at the success rate of Liverpool signings under Benitez and up to Rodgers, and compare it with the one under Klopp. Night and day.

When I used to say that in 3-4 years only 1-2 out of Dembele, Malcom, Semedo, Arthur, Alena will be here, you guys laughed.
It doesn't take the skills of a genius to predict that under an incompetent management, with no strategic planning, with no logic or rationale in making signings, that most will fail. Let alone that some of them (like Semedo, Arthur) showed even in these circumstances signs of potential that could not be exploited due to being mismanaged and played wrongly.

Plus, the same as with Dembele, in my opinion, probably 90% of all time greats forwards had that killer-leader-cocky mentality.
Like Cr7, Ronaldinho, Etoo, Zlatan, Henry, Batistuta, R9, Ruud or even Neymar.
I just don't have too high hopes in a forward who acts like a too shy, nice, too humble guy.
I don't know is it a cultural thing in Catalonia or what, but majority of La Masia players act like choir boys.
... On the other hand, look at cockiness and bravery of Halaand and Mbappe, for example.
They do have both footballing and mental ingredients to be superstars.
OK, this argument can be said to be entirely within the domain of pseudo-science, or pseudo-psychology.
The burden of proof lies with the one making the argument.
You have to show why this is the case.
In particular, why a psychological trait (which is ill-defined above) has any impact on the ability on the pitch.
(Haaland is not cocky by the way. Maybe brave, not cocky.
Also all the players you mention are widely different in terms of character. And i don't know how you define cocky but it must be broad to include all of these)
 

Birdy

Senior Member
Now, about Fati's footballing ability, you write some pretty laughable things:

About Fati, I am not impressed.
I know that he is young, but he has those Dembele&Alexis moments in each match where he is either a genius or he is tripping over the ball.
....
If I would have to make a premature wild guess, I would say in this moment that he won't make it or that his ceiling will be Gabriel Jesus type of an attacker.
He isn't too fast, he isn't a huge aerial threat, his shooting power is meh.
He looks like a good link up-allrounder with a good sense of getting into good positions inside of a box.

:lol: You seem to have not watched him at all this season.
The fact alone that you say he is not fast shows how biased you are. Even honest haters would admit it's one of his strengths. And then you expect people to take your opinion seriously?

And then:
He is shortish, but still can jump higher than many and win headers. He scored already an unbelievable header in his debut against Osasuna.
He is strong for his stature and body shape, cannot be brought down easily, can withstand shoulder to shoulder challenge.
His shooting ability is fantastic for the age of 17. He directs the ball where he wants it to go, through tiny openings, with enough speed. Power can develop. Messi was also not shooting as powerfully as later until some age (21-22).
And of course, he is the only one in the team (apart from Messi, and the permanently injured Dembele) who can dribble and take on opponents.

But, all these are not enough for you from a 17yr old. You want more.
Could you name any player besides Messi who had more skill at the age of 17 and a bigger impact on a top club like Barcelona (and not in a no-name team in Brazil's second division or something) than Ansu? Probably not.
Then just admit to yourself that you are just biased
 
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khaled_a_d

Senior Member
:lol: You seem to have not watched him at all this season.
The fact alone that you say he is not fast shows how biased you are. Even honest haters would admit it's one of his strengths. And then you expect people to take your opinion seriously?

Hmmm, what? There is a lot of discussion in his thread on whether he is fast enough to survive as a winger. No one has really said it is one of his main strength because it isn't.
 

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
PS: You guys are provoking BBZ tbh.
He has said a good statement about Fati and how it is a wait and see approach for him and yet you poked him into the discussion because of his history with young players. I mean even if you think he is exaggerating or hate his opinion there is no need to push him when he is saying something realistic and not trying to pash anyone,
 

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
PS: You guys are provoking BBZ tbh.
He has said a good statement about Fati and how it is a wait and see approach for him and yet you poked him into the discussion because of his history with young players. I mean even if you think he is exaggerating or hate his opinion there is no need to push him when he is saying something realistic and not trying to pash anyone,

That statement was only half true. He is downplaying Fati's performances massively.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Why do you have to postulate a historical average (which by the way we don't even know if accurate) as if it is an unshakable law of nature?
It's not gravity. It can change with better planning and better decision.
Look at the success rate of Liverpool signings under Benitez and up to Rodgers, and compare it with the one under Klopp. Night and day.


It doesn't take the skills of a genius to predict that under an incompetent management, with no strategic planning, with no logic or rationale in making signings, that most will fail. Let alone that some of them (like Semedo, Arthur) showed even in these circumstances signs of potential that could not be exploited due to being mismanaged and played wrongly.


OK, this argument can be said to be entirely within the domain of pseudo-science, or pseudo-psychology.
The burden of proof lies with the one making the argument.
You have to show why this is the case.
In particular, why a psychological trait (which is ill-defined above) has any impact on the ability on the pitch.
(Haaland is not cocky by the way. Maybe brave, not cocky.
Also all the players you mention are widely different in terms of character. And i don't know how you define cocky but it must be broad to include all of these)

Are you very young or what?

If our record over the last 20 years is 30% of success, that means that there are 100s of reasons for that and not a stupid alibi: Barto and EV are guilty for everything.

1. over those 20 years, we had several presidents
2. we had 10+ coaches
3. we had several sporting directors
4. we have bought around 100 players and tried 100+ La Masia products
And again, if a success rate of new signings is around 30% and if a success rate of La Masia (Best talents) is between 5-10%, it has nothing to do with Barto, EV or BBZ.

Of course that those numbers can go up, like in once in a lifetime Pep's era.
But then, you need to know that those numbers can go DOWN, way more than today.

Further, about might Liverpool, lol.
It is way easier to build a team when:
1. you are down, and when you suck
2. when the expectations are low
3. when you have 2-3-4-5 years to develop a team, with no pressure over results

Let's go to Barca now:
1. we are not down, we don't suck. We are years away from that position
2. expectations are not low. I mean, a lot of fans are hoping that we can win a CL in a few weeks
3. we don't have 3-4 years to develop a team

So, you can't take the best example in the world, Liverpool, who started a new project and didn't have any pressure over immediate results, with Barca.
That will never happen here.
We are too rich and too successful.

About cockiness, that's my term.
For your attitude:
1. I am not afraid on anyone
2. I don't respect the older opponents, I will not sulk, I will dribble past anyone and shoot against anyone

I am reading and analyzing these traits for years among friends, people, coworkers and women.
I wrote after 2 weeks that Dembele is dumb as fuck, when no one has ever mentioned that on our forum.
About Arthur, I said from the early days that there is no way that eh will improve his attacking game because that's his football DNA (his natural game and his natural instincts)=to slow down and pas sideways.
I have also said about Dembele, apart from his IQ, and that he can't be a leader of big clubs because he has a too timid personality.

About Fati, he is not as timid as Dembele, but he is kinda shy to average guy at best.
People don't like my numbers, but let's say, in my view, that Fati is at 4/10 in terms of cockiness, bravery, leadership, for now.
Now, look at best players in the world in the last 20 years:
Figo, cocky, brave and kinda an asshole
R9, brave from the age of 17
Owen, kinda timid, like La Masia guys and Fati
Shevchenko, average to brave
Ronaldinho, brave, leader, cocky
Cr7, lol. No comments needed.
Messi, shy, but he had Goat skills. And still suffered a lot due to a lack of mental strength in lots of moments, especially in away games after 2012.
Or from other Barca's attackers: Etoo, Henry, Villa, Kluivert, Rivaldo.
They were all very brave and somewhat cocky and arrogant.

In my view, as an attacker= that is a proactive position.
You are always in charge of creating things out of nothing.
And to some extent, you need to "provoke" opponents, dribble past them making fool out of them, and not caring about their feelings/career too much.
You need to have something ruthless in your personality to succeed on that level, to have bravery for these things and to survive pressure, haters, media and opponents.

Now, apart from Messi, try to find some shy and overly nice guys who made it the highest level as world class attackers.
For example, you need to be extremely brave, confident and cocky to every try a shit like this in a WC quarters, aged 22, way before coming to Barca:
** Btw look at the look in his eyes, celebration, smile and some cockiness after scoring.
That's what I am talking about.
That's the trait of true attacking geniuses and leaders:

Or attempting a shot like this on your Camp Nou debut:

Some of you guys will now say: he doesn't need to be Ronaldinho.
Fine.
But in our history, we always had one R9, Romario, Ronaldinho or Rivaldo.
We sucked without these leaders (and attackers).
So, my point is: even if Fati will improve a lot in footballing terms, he probably won't be a leader/attacker-leader of our team like guys mentioned above.
That means that even if he will improve a lot, we would need to buy one new Ronaldinho/Ricaldo next to him to take that leadership/creative/bravery burden.

On the other hand, one more thing to consider, in the last 30 years of La Masia, only 2 attackers made it:
Messi, who is the one and only.
And Pedro, who isn't La Masia product at all since he was bought aged 18.

So, historically, La Masia is good at producing midfielders for our team.
But in terms of attackers, our record is abysmal.
Something is seriously wrong in that combo: La Masia - attacking skills - mentality of players.

Imo, some of the problems are:
1. for an attacker/winger, you need a raw physical power like pace and explosivness
Yet, at La Masia, we usually rely on shorter, technical players and I am not too sure whether we do too much with their pace and physical skills in their early age
2. another problem is relying on education of players. In documentaries, I have seen that one of the main goals of La Masia is to create: nice guys, well educated, who are nice, humble and similar.
While being humble and nice is an awesome trait for being a good and reliable friend, imo, it is not too compatible with being am extremely driven, brave, leader, overly confident future Ballon D Or winner and a leader of your team in tough moments.

So, this is not about Fati.
For every young attacker in the future who will be too nice and too humble, my answer will be: he will never reach extreme heights due to too nice/shy personality.
Sport is kinda like entertainment and like being a rockstar.
You need to have a driven and extremely confident personality to reach absolute heights.

About other skills, lol.
He is not fast.
It's not that he is slow, but he is average.
And then, studies have shown that wingers and attackers are in their prime in terms of explosiveness in late teen years and in early 20s.
So, imagine Fati after the age of 25 when his pace will start to decline.
So, no, he is not too fast and his pace could be a huge problem for your dreams of him becoming some sort of Barca's leader.

About jumping, lol.
The fact that he can jump doesn't make him an aerial beast.

also, take a look at his shots.
Majority of shots are like Pippo Inzaghi's shots.
Precise, weak, ricochet lucky shots. And mostly shots on the ground when the ball is rolling extremely slow and you don't know whether it will reach the goal line at all.
It's not as if he has Batistuta's shooting power...

And pardon me if after years of watching R9, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Messi, I am not impressed at all by our supposed "next gem" Fati or his pace, dribbles and shooting:

Also, another thing which is forgotten. IN the autumn when he started to play, he scored some goals, but was mostly invisible, a turnover machine, the worst player on the field with questionable decision making. He played like Dembele on his worst days.
Just read comments from that era:
http://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/15648-Anssumane-Fati/page35

Then after corona, we played without fans, and majority of teams played in some sort of weird off-season-friendly mode with 50% of motivation.

So, it is hard to tell whether lately Fati played well:
1. because he has improved
2. or because nobody cared both in our team and in opponent's teams

Every coin always has two sides.
You guys as always, want to see only one side, the happier side.

So, yes:
1. you are overrating him a lot
2. you don't want to see his flaws
3. and the funniest, you are made when someone actually points to his objective and clear flaws

You'll now ask: but why are you pointing ONLY flaws?
= well, because a majority of posters are mentioning only good sides.
What's the point of repeating the same?
It's of more worth to add more value with flaws to see the whole picture.
 
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mc_lovin

Senior Member
You keep forgetting that Fati is 16/17. Theres some footage of 16 years old Ronaldo and, damn, he looks slow. Just take a good talent for what it is. Being realistic is good, but it appears that you are actively rooting against him (see the Leganes match thread)... just because he doesnt fit your alpha male narrative (I dont want to touch your hobby psychology further). Take a deep breath. And dont get me started with comapring him to 22 years old Ronaldinho :lol: What the heck.

Not to mention your approach (every talent is shit) adds no value whatsoever. I personally never rated the likes of Alena, Samper, Denis and countless more, but Fati and to a degree Puig (if he catches up physically) look as good as they come. Arthur will have a good career as well.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Biggest flops:

Turan - past it after Simeone got the best out of him and poor mentality

Coutinho - poor mentality and didn't fit the team

Dembele - injury problems mostly

Griezmann (pending) - doesn't fit the team at this point in time

These are mostly the signings that made a big whole in the budget over the last years.

How many young talents there? Dembele only, who had issues with injuries that's why.

Just checked online, even with Gomes, we got most of the money back since he played well in Premier League. Alcacer the same. With Mina and Digne we made some good money. With Malcom we broke even. With Arthur we made some money as well, not much, but still...
 
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Alik

Moderator
Biggest flops:

Turan - past it after Simeone got the best out of him and poor mentality

Coutinho - poor mentality and didn't fit the team

Dembele - injury problems mostly

Griezmann (pending) - doesn't fit the team at this point in time

These are mostly the signings that made a big whole in the budget over the last years.

How many young talents there? Dembele only, who had issues with injuries that's why.

Just checked online, even with Gomes, we got most of the money back since he played well in Premier League. Alcacer the same. With Mina and Digne we made some good money. With Malcom we broke even. With Arthur we made some money as well, not much, but still...

I was previously lenient on Griezmann, but his performances in the second half of the season have been poor. Then I saw how much he was getting paid. He's the second highest paid player in the team! Twice as much as Suarez!

These are the players 2020 annual salaries:

1 Lionel Messi € 70,758,000
2 Antoine Griezmann € 45,834,000
3 Luis Suarez € 23,400,000
4 Frenkie de Jong € 20,834,000
5 Sergio Busquets € 14,949,000
6 Ivan Rakitic € 13,354,000
7 Gerard Pique € 12,740,000
8 Ousmane Dembele € 12,000,000
9 Samuel Umtiti € 12,000,000
10 Sergi Roberto € 9,966,000
11 Arturo Vidal € 9,000,000
12 Jordi Alba € 8,580,000
13 Marc-Andre ter Stegen € 8,580,000
14 Arthur € 4,883,000
15 Neto € 3,704,000
16 Nelson Semedo € 3,429,000
17 Clement Lenglet € 2,699,000
18 Carles Ale?? € 869,000
19 Junior Firpo € 716,000
20 Jean-Clair Todibo € 597,000
 

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