10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[BerkeleyBernie]

From my talented old school buddy. Check out his instagram for other celebs.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzGMUekg6Gz

 

[mc_lovin]

That quote is cringy as fuck.

 

[Arizona Scott]

We certainly have bigger problems to worry about at this club but let's not pretend that Messi should be freed from any blame whatsoever.
Messi might be scoring for fun but his overall play and i mean that with the utmost respect has not been that great for a very long time and that's just my opinion.
And i love Messi too and i rate him as the greatest ever but I'm not blind either.

Let's put this in human terms. Replace Messi with _________(mortal) in the history of football, and Barca has more trophies than they have achieved from 2008 on?

Since Iniesta and Xavi started deteriorating Messi is the #1 reason why Barca has dominated a league that has a club with Real Madrid (resources and pull) in it and has a treble. In fact no team in Spain without Messi has EVER had a treble

Last year was a very good chance at one--a couple of defensive brain farts from likely having one--I suppose Messi should be marking in the box, moving to midfield to receive the ball, and then passing to himself to score, after he already put 3 in the tie vs the best defensive team in the world.

The day Messi gets whistled by a sizeable group (if stadium fans have the attitude in here) is the day FC Barcelona deserves to turn to dust. Would have said the exact same if whistles wrang out for Iniesta, Xavi or Puyol BTW. The club and fans are lucky to be able to appreciate all of them and they have earned 150% support.

 

[Judoman]

Everyone should know by now that our club is run by idiots.. Kool, but why cant we adress some of Messi's flaws as a footballer aswell? And yes u might think that my opinion is flawed but Messi scoring x amount of goals is not gonna hide the fact that his overall play has declined alot over the years

Why? Because his production and gameplay vastly overshadows his flaws on a insanely regular basis. There is no perfect player on the planet. But he is close to this label in the "attackers" category.

There are 20+ other players in this team. It makes much more sense to talk about their flaws, but somehow the "Messi is [insert moaning]" agenda is always present in the last few years.

 

[serghei]

Except that's not applicable to last season where he was one of our best performers in the tie vs Liverpool.

Huh? He was terrible in the return leg. Captain of a team who collapsed like schoolboys.

Yet another CL away game where he and the team crumbled under pressure.

Atletico 0-2, PSG 0-4, Juventus 0-3, Rome 0-3, Liverpool 0-4. Goal difference 0-16. You call that playing good? He was mediocre or terrible in all of those games.

 

[Afromaticz]

Why? Because his production and gameplay vastly overshadows his flaws on a insanely regular basis. There is no perfect player on the planet. But he is close to this label in the "attackers" category.

There are 20+ other players in this team. It makes much more sense to talk about their flaws, but somehow the "Messi is [insert moaning]" agenda is always present in the last few years.

Here is where we disagree tho. Granted his productivity is insane but i also feel that his laziness and positioning can be very disruptive.

And If u think Messi gettin criticised every once in a bluemoon is bad u should go and read the other 20+ player threads on this forum this is nothing.

 

[Afromaticz]

Huh? He was terrible in the return leg. Captain of a team who collapsed like schoolboys.

Yet another CL away game where he and the team crumbled under pressure.

This

 

[serghei]

No the debate wasn't isolated to a single tournament. It was a comparison and discussion of 2 players as footballers. If you what you said is true it should have made more a difference in league titles--the long game where fitness and hunger and team togetherness is so critical versus playing well and shining a few matches in a long season. We all know the league record for them, directly head to head, while on each others direct nemisis club. League titles are where good bounces, favorable draws, luck and inconsistency (effort/excellence) is weeded out. Big contrast to cup competitions, always will be.

Sorry, but the debate was aimed at the CL, based on the Van Gaal comments, which were pretty much spot on.

I said Ronaldo is the superior player in Champions League. Isn't this the big problem here? The Champions League? Isn't this why we're talking about this season as if it was terrible? Because we failed again big time in the CL?

For me, the Messi camp is in complete denial. The player has some serious workrate and tactical limitations that is making it difficult for us, playing for Messi, to win the CL. It works with some opponents like United, Lyon, last year Chelsea, who are far from elite (probably even Europa League quality to be fair). When the top teams come, he is shut down, sulks, and we get stuffed away. Year, after year, after year.

For me the deal breaker was when he publicly backed Valverde, and said he holds no blame for the new CL fiasco. It means he and the rest of the veterans are part of the problem, along with Valverde, who is the chief idiot in charge.

 

[eaman]

Here is where we disagree tho. Granted his productivity is insane but i also feel that his laziness and positioning can be very disruptive.

And If u think Messi gettin criticised every once in a bluemoon is bad u should go and read the other 20+ player threads on this forum this is nothing.

You call it laziness Messi calls it saving energy for the things he does best. Does Ronaldo do the same? Yes. Does salah? Yes

 

[Afromaticz]

You call it laziness Messi calls it saving energy for the things he does best. Does Ronaldo do the same? Yes. Does salah? Yes

Out of all the players u mentioned, Messi is BY FAR the laziest of the bunch and its not even close.
Do i think Ronaldo or Salah are better footballers? hell no! but lets call a spade a spade

 

[serghei]

You call it laziness Messi calls it saving energy for the things he does best. Does Ronaldo do the same? Yes. Does salah? Yes

That's like trying to convince 18 year old teens that Santa is in fact real.

 

[eaman]

Out of all the players u mentioned, Messi is BY FAR the laziest of the bunch and its not even close.
Do i think Ronaldo or Salah are better footballers? hell no! but lets call a spade a spade

Why because he hangs around the centre of the pitch waiting for the ball more than the other two? He does this because this is where he can hurt teams more and where he is better than the other two so why wouldn't he wait for the ball there alot of the time

 

[serghei]

serghei's right to some degree, but he's painting many wrong reasons.

CR7 isn't some gifted, inspiring leader like Puyol or even a Ramos. In the last 4-5 years, he's prioritized the CL and gone above and beyond his normal effort (as it should be). Messi for some reason has only done that in 18/19 out of the last 4-5 seasons. That's just exercising common/good sense.

CR7, because of his physical attributes and off the ball movement (best in the world and in history) is simply better suited to banging in those ugly goals and headers than Messi is, who pretty much only scores aesthetically pleasing goals. As a proof, all of CR7's knockout goals this season (3 v ATM, 2 v Ajax) were either PKs or headers. Sure, he puts out those bangers like versus Juve every now and then but those are not the norm.

CL is about winning, however it takes. Both Messi and Barca are not flexible enough in this regard. Look at how shit Liverpool were in the final but at the end of the day, they have their 6th ahead of Barca and Bayern. Don't even get me started on Madrid's CLs. Only the 2017 one came with a League double. Meanwhile, all 5 of our CLs have been European doubles, meaning we win only when we are overwhelmingly strong and can compensate for any tactical inflexibility.

That's my take on it. Messi is the better, superior player in talent and gameplay but I would also take CR7 in CL KOs. Same as how I would trust RM more in CL KOs than Barca (shouldn't be any disagreement on this one).

I disagree that what Ronaldo does is anything close to easy or lucky. It's a great set of skills that he's mastered along the years. He is just a killer in the box. Simple as that. I've read somewhere that he had abysmal heading abilities when he moved to United and that Sir Alex was making fun of him for how crap he headed the ball. This tells you everything you need to know about Ronaldo. For more than a decade he has the best heading game in football probably. Ambition, and determination unlike any other player. True winner, and that's enough praising about Ronaldo.

I agree with the assesment that Messi is overall better player, career wise, due to 1) having a higher peak (not as long, but brighter in its feeling of completeness), and having an overall greater body of work (more memorable goals, dribbles, unseen collection of golazos and 'what the fuck was that' moments, basically what most people mean when they say genius). But it is also true that Ronaldo has several areas, important ones as well, where he has overtaken Messi. This has to be acknowledged and understood. Why that happened, and how Ronaldo managed to dominate Messi in the most important club competition in Europe.

It is as close to 'obvious-ness' as it gets at this point. Messi has more consistency over the season, where he makes the difference with his ability and superior talent, Ronaldo has the drive, and the leadership to rise up to the challenge in the big moments more than Messi.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Sorry, but the debate was aimed at the CL, based on the Van Gaal comments, which were pretty much spot on.

I said Ronaldo is the superior player in Champions League. Isn't this the big problem here? The Champions League? Isn't this why we're talking about this season as if it was terrible? Because we failed again big time in the CL?

For me, the Messi camp is in complete denial. The player has some serious workrate and tactical limitations that is making it difficult for us, playing for Messi, to win the CL. It works with some opponents like United, Lyon, last year Chelsea, who are far from elite (probably even Europa League quality to be fair). When the top teams come, he is shut down, sulks, and we get stuffed away. Year, after year, after year.

For me the deal breaker was when he publicly backed Valverde, and said he holds no blame for the new CL fiasco. It means he and the rest of the veterans are part of the problem, along with Valverde, who is the chief idiot in charge.

Well I just completely disagree with you, it is fine. The most successful managers in this era (Pep, Klopp, J Mo) will tell you cup competitions have many things you just can't control--more often than not the best team doesn't win. Intensity also runs just as high in Classicos and Atletico domestically--and those are better than 90% of the CL teams--certainly 5x better than Roma. The idea these matches are not more indicative of the highest level of play (vs a match vs Roma or Lyon or United) is insane. When two teams of anywhere comparable quality, it is always going to be a crapshoot in 1 offs, or ties. (and even massive upsets can happen--see Roma). In a cup format one bad half and you are screwed. Season to season, champions league sample size is way too small. If you take all champions league matches, CR has a goal clip at .78 and Messi at .81. And that doesn't get to chances created, assiting in possession when others don't do the job, and playmaking Messi does. I am pretty sure CRs goals to shots (efficiency) is way worse--at least it has been in every comparison I have seen between them.

CR has had more CL success the last 4 years, no question (Had a lot less league and domestic cup success as well). Messi was the best player in the world this champions league season, well without a doubt the best attacking player. But IMO it is lazy thinking to not consider teammates, managers, flukes/good bounces, draws, calls and the nature of these competitions, see above. As some of us has said CR hasn't been the decisive player in the majority of his final appearances.

One final thing, if Messi and the club remains snakebitten from here on out in the CL, every Barca fan should celebrate him--just like Puyol, Iniesta and Xavi. Of course I don't think it will happen--hope the club gets at least one more with him, but it is possibility they don't--too many variables in any given year. It would take away some from his legacy yes, but take away what he has given to Barca, almost nada.

 

[Barcaman]

There was this debate about just that on Argentina tv. One of his ex-teammates on the panel was saying how even in practice, he'd get jitters and freeze just being in the presence of Leo. Even that Chihuaha Sampa was saying Argentina is Messi's team, therefore delesting himself of any responsibility. See what I mean?

Spot on. Messi is on such a different level that players often, involuntary, just freeze. And Leo himself, by his geniusnes, breaks any tactic we have planned so obviously team-play suffers.

That's why it's good to have those confident superstars to play with him. Suarez with his instinctivenes, or Neymar with his confidence.

That all being said we can't afford to have another man walking up there and our basic problem remains lack of pace.