Champions League 2022/2023

[KingLeo10]

Better yes, but hardly kryptonite or anything like that.

You had a grand total of one win more during Lucho's time over us, EV was our real kryptonite.

I wouldn't expect any semblance of logic from an EV twerker.

EV's 4 Ws in a row versus RM in 18-19 (against Lope and Solari lmao) mean fuck all compared to keeping peak RM (CL semis, CL, CL; 90+ avg points in those 3 years) to 2 W and 3 L with - goal differential under Lucho.

 

[Morten]

You didn't. MSN Barca, Pep Barca, 2008 and 2009 United, Heynckes Bayern. Those are great teams, full of elite players of the quality of your main core. Barely faced any of them, you faced only Pep Barca and got beaten.

Bayern 14-16, Atletico same time period, yes, those qualify as great teams for me.

In any case, it has literally nothing to do with our record during that time, we were simply the biggest chokers in UCL during those years, we could win a league title, but get dunked on by Lyon in R16, says a lot.

 

[serghei]

The point is it takes a great team to beat Madrid in CL. They are tremendously effective against garden variety good teams, like the ones parading around in CL in the last years.

 

[Morten]

I wouldn't expect any semblance of logic from an EV twerker.

EV's 4 Ws in a row versus RM in 18-19 (against Lope and Solari lmao) mean fuck all compared to keeping peak RM (CL semis, CL, CL; 90+ avg points in those 3 years) to 2 W and 3 L with - goal differential under Lucho.

EV also schooled our UCL-winning team in 17/18.

 

[KingLeo10]

You didn't. MSN Barca, Pep Barca, 2008 and 2009 United, Heynckes Bayern. Those are great teams, full of elite players of the quality of your main core, or even higher. Barely faced any of them, you faced only Pep Barca of that class and got beaten.

It's normal though, teams of a very high caliber don't appear often, maybe once a decade or even rarer.

They also lost to Heynckes Bayern in 2012 (who peaked in 2013 but were great in 2012 also)

No way RM rack up this many CLs in the 00s and early 10s with teams like: Pep Barca, Carlo's Milan, United 07-09, Rijkaard's Barca, and Mou's Chelsea around. Pep's Barca would beat them more often than not, Milan and United would go about even, and Rijkaard's Barca and Mou's Chelsea win some but get beat more frequently than win.

 

[KingLeo10]

EV also schooled our UCL-winning team in 17/18.

Conveniently left out that you scored 75 points in the league that season.

You were running on fumes and prioritizing CL over league.

How hard is this to understand that you were at your peak when you were both winning CLs and going 90+ points in league?

 

[serghei]

They also lost to Heynckes Bayern in 2012 (who peaked in 2013 but were great in 2012 also)

No way RM rack up this many CLs in the 00s and early 10s with teams like: Pep Barca, Carlo's Milan, United 07-09, Rijkaard's Barca, and Mou's Chelsea around. Pep's Barca would beat them more often than not, Milan and United would go about even, and Rijkaard's Barca and Mou's Chelsea win some but get beat more frequently than win.

I think the same. They pick up CLs at an incredible rate between the high peaks of the other elite clubs. They are ruthless and barely get suckerpunched by an inferior rival like other top teams.

Happened like once vs Ajax since Lyon in 2009 I think.

 

[Morten]

Conveniently left out that you scored 75 points in the league that season.

You were running on fumes and prioritizing CL over league.

How hard is this to understand that you were at your peak when you were both winning CLs and going 90+ points in league?

I think you got the seasons mixed up, we scored 94 goals in the league that season, we had other issues, but scoring goals wasn't really one of them.

I know when our peak was btw.

 

[KingLeo10]

I think you got the seasons mixed up, we scored 94 goals in the league that season, we had other issues, but scoring goals wasn't really one of them.

You scored 94 goals and let in 44 goals (a record for a team like RM) for a grand total of 75 LL points lmao.

You were not giving 100% in the league and were prioritizing CL

Or are you telling me 17/18 LL was so tough you only managed 75 points v them while beating PSG, Juve, Bayern, and Pool in a row in CL KOs?

 

[Morten]

Guys, listen to me, i watched RM during those times, we were bottlers, end of story.

It didn't necessarily take great teams to beat us, Lyon and Roma both knocked us out of R16 those times, Bayern is a big name, but when they beat us in 06/07 they were crap also.

Its not that other teams were so briliant that made our record so bad, it was that we didn't know how to play knock-out football.

Were there better top teams then than now? Yeah, the level of top teams right now is rather low imo.

 

[KingLeo10]

It actually is brutal what they've done to AM, Bayern, and Pool since 13-14

AM - Lost 4 out of 4 KO ties
Bayern - Lost 3 out of 3 KO ties (with like 5 games lost in a row in the mix)
Pool - Lost 5 out of 5 KO ties (with like 6 losses and 1 draw in 7 games so far across those ties)

The only all time great players (in their prime) across those 3 teams over the years are Neuer and maybe Lewandowski. Basically the only sure one is a GK who kept some of the Bayern scorelines from being comedy

"Hard working, huff and puff" teams are RM's specialty. You need some superstar and all time greats in your lineup to put some fear in them It's a lot different facing prime Messi/Eto'o/Villa, Ronaldo/Rooney/Tevez, and R10/Eto'o/young Messi in attack or facing Xavi/Iniesta or Kaka/Gattuso/Seedorf/Pirlo midfields than it is facing the hustle merchants

 

[Andresito]

Not sure what's special with Madrid. Great leaders? Highly influential players like Casillas, Pepe, Casemiro, Ramos, CR have all left but they still keep winning the same way as the did before.

It's like a club culture that passes on. Veterans like Carvajal, Nacho, Kroos, Modric, Benz are the last men standing, but they have a good transition going so the culture will live on through Courtois, Valverde and Vini (plus likes of Militao, Mendy, Rodrygo) who have been there for 4-5 years now. And these formerly mentioned vets are still able to perform at top level. When they leave they'll have a core that've been at the club winning things during 7-8 years.


Looking at our squad it's a lot more choppy. We have/had Busquets, Alba, Pique and Roberto as our seniors. Incredibly good support players in a XI (Busi, Alba, Pique) in their prime but not the type of leader you'd follow to death. Plus they're all way too past it to be starters for a CL aspiring team. So the transition has to be made now.

After them comes ter Stegen and then Dembele, Frenkie and Pedri. Players that haven't smelled a lot of club success (bar ter Stegen).
Who is going to teach our players to be winners, who's going to keep up a culture that defeat is unacceptable at all times?

 

[Morten]

Definitely some voodoo going on, as you've said.
Atletico on the other hand have an excellent record in Europe against Barca, domesticially however, their record is just sad.

 

[KingLeo10]

The whole history of RM in the EC/CL would have been vastly different if we managed to sign Di Stefano instead of them

Their winning culture started with him, Puskas, Kopa, and Gento and others.

Everyone knows those cups back then weren't as tough to win as today, but it does wonders for your mentality when you have a 5-6 trophy head start on basically every other big club

 

[El Gato]

Not sure what's special with Madrid. Great leaders? Highly influential players like Casillas, Pepe, Casemiro, Ramos, CR have all left but they still keep winning the same way as the did before.

It's like a club culture that passes on. Veterans like Carvajal, Nacho, Kroos, Modric, Benz are the last men standing, but they have a good transition going so the culture will live on through Courtois, Valverde and Vini (plus likes of Militao, Mendy, Rodrygo) who have been there for 4-5 years now. And these formerly mentioned vets are still able to perform at top level. When they leave they'll have a core that've been at the club winning things during 7-8 years.


Looking at our squad it's a lot more choppy. We have/had Busquets, Alba, Pique and Roberto as our seniors. Incredibly good support players in a XI (Busi, Alba, Pique) in their prime but not the type of leader you'd follow to death. Plus they're all way too past it to be starters for a CL aspiring team. So the transition has to be made now.

After them comes ter Stegen and then Dembele, Frenkie and Pedri. Players that haven't smelled a lot of club success (bar ter Stegen).
Who is going to teach our players to be winners, who's going to keep up a culture that defeat is unacceptable at all times?

The overlap of vets teaching hustle culture to kids certainly helps. But also important to recruit kids that care about succeeding at the club itself rather than be there for money/banter/prestige by association.
If Perez got one thing right and that is not bringing in anyone that doesn't specifically say they prefer Madrid. Cama rejected PSG, Tchou Liverpool, Vini rejected Barca (even if for more money and bigger likelihood to play in the immediate term). Ceballos opted to stay than leave back to Betis twice now. Important to identifying who wants to do it at RM specifically and hustle to achieve it. If you dont do that you run risk of never developing that attachment in a player (i.e. Jovic). You may have a few busts on the way (Odriozola who I think still cares, just is too poor; Vallejo, Reinier), but it's not an entirely flawed pre-requisite to being a RM target.
Barca are going down similar road with Araujo, Gavi, Fati etc but fair way to go there and really until now kinda ropey on veterans.
Even United kinda going that way by sticking with likes of Rashford, McTom and bringing in Bruno or Antony to reignite passion for badge + supplying Rafa, Eriksen and Casemiro to help with. It's the transfers like CR that are fucking useless to building good culture. Not terrible on recruitment, just need a decisive decision maker to make it a priority.

It's still incredibly annoying to assume that 30+ year olds that we refuse to sign up will not have that same fight or put selves above club. Like Zlatan is all bluster but he's quality in small measures and it makes all sense in the world to take him in as sub CF on low wage rather than put fucking Hazard there at false 9.