Cr150

[cracken]

The narrative that Ronaldo is a mere stat padder who owes everything to Modric and co has taken a massive hit this year.

 

[Cule4life]

The narrative that Ronaldo is a mere stat padder who owes everything to Modric and co has taken a massive hit this year.

Now he owes everything to Bernadeschi and co

 

[cracken]

Now he owes everything to Bernadeschi and co

Believe it or not, I already noticed that some people are beginning to inflate Juve players just to minimize Ronaldo's individual impact.

Whatever helps one sleep at night I guess.

 

[BruceWayne11]

Sadly, this is quite true. It seems that Real's 100 crosses tactics and counter attacks with Ronaldo is the most OP tactic in the CL, sadly. Yesterday we saw Juve play the same way, which worked well. Messi can't play that way, as he's too short for those crosses to be effective, and also we usually attack against a set defence and not on the counter. Messi is a far superior footballer than Ronaldo though, but Ronaldo's playstyle with that kind of tactic seems really good in the CL. Messi and Barca's style requires more perfection and highly skilled technical players to pull off, while being strong at the back.

 

[TrueCule]

Lame celebration at the end. Hopefully he is suspended for at least one match for this gesture. Simeone was fined but just because the referee didn't include the incident in his report. If the referee included this in his report, he might get suspended.

 

[Marchisio8]

Believe it or not, I already noticed that some people are beginning to inflate Juve players just to minimize Ronaldo's individual impact.

Whatever helps one sleep at night I guess.

And they actually force themselves to believe it.

 

[BBZ8800]

Now all the Ronaldo fangirls around the office would be insufferable. With that diva and his fangirls involved, there's no respite even after the match his over.

Hey [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] your dear Valgreen also plays one dimensional football which you keep harping on about. Please tell us you have changed your mind about Malmierda so that we stop doubting your sanity.

You are already halfway through your recovery from your workhorse fetish. Keep going

Messi and his teams play this way since always.
Tito, Tata, Lucho, Ev, all Argentinian NT coaches.

When you have Messi in a team, everything is built around him.
Build up, possession, passing patterns, shooting.

Imagine if you were a coach next season.
What would you do?
Can you tell Messi to play as a RW? No.
Can you tell him NOT to drop deep since he is too far from a goal then? No.
Can you tell him to try some new attacking patterns aged 32? No.
Can you tell him to try headers? No.

You can't change your tactics and attacking paterns with Messi in a team.
The only thing you can do is to add Dembele and someone else and hope that they will magically score in a CL since Messi will be neutralized and trying the same action through the middle over and over.

Messi doesn't offer too many tactical attacking options.
If it works=it works.
If it doesn't=you can't play a plan B with him.

I have said this during the World cup when Messi was easily neutralized by all teams:
1. If we have to play against a smaller team=Messi is a better option than CR7 (La Liga) and we will win 3:0.
Messi's magic is too good against weaker opponents.
2. But if we play a big knockout match against any physical and experienced team, then CR7 is the better pick.
It is the 70th minute against Atletico or Juventus, your team is losing 0:1.
Do you think that Messi or Cr7 will break that bus easier?

It has not too much to do with Ernie, Allegri and Zidane.
Cr7 was scoring headers and late key goals with Portugal, Zidane, Allegri.
Messi is neutralized and sulking in the same fashion majority of time under Tata, Lucho, EV, Argentina matches.

The sample in the last few years is too large.
It can't be a coincidence and good/bad luck.

On the highest level of football, Messi's style of football is easier to neutralize than CR7's.
Against smaller teams, it is the opposite.

 

[BruceWayne11]

Messi and his teams play this way since always.
Tito, Tata, Lucho, Ev, all Argentinian NT coaches.

When you have Messi in a team, everything is built around him.
Build up, possession, passing patterns, shooting.

Imagine if you were a coach next season.
What would you do?
Can you tell Messi to play as a RW? No.
Can you tell him NOT to drop deep since he is too far from a goal then? No.
Can you tell him to try some new attacking patterns aged 32? No.
Can you tell him to try headers? No.

You can't change your tactics and attacking paterns with Messi in a team.
The only thing you can do is to add Dembele and someone else and hope that they will magically score in a CL since Messi will be neutralized and trying the same action through the middle over and over.

Messi doesn't offer too many tactical attacking options.
If it works=it works.
If it doesn't=you can't play a plan B with him.

I have said this during the World cup when Messi was easily neutralized by all teams:
1. If we have to play against a smaller team=Messi is a better option than CR7 (La Liga) and we will win 3:0.
Messi's magic is too good against weaker opponents.
2. But if we play a big knockout match against any physical and experienced team, then CR7 is the better pick.
It is the 70th minute against Atletico or Juventus, your team is losing 0:1.
Do you think that Messi or Cr7 will break that bus easier?

It has not too much to do with Ernie, Allegri and Zidane.
Cr7 was scoring headers and late key goals with Portugal, Zidane, Allegri.
Messi is neutralized and sulking in the same fashion majority of time under Tata, Lucho, EV, Argentina matches.

The sample in the last few years is too large.
It can't be a coincidence and good/bad luck.

On the highest level of football, Messi's style of football is easier to neutralize than CR7's.
Against smaller teams, it is the opposite.

This is quite true. Real and Ronaldo found an OP tactic of a lot of crosses into the box and counter attacks. Messi is too small to play like that. Barca's and Messi's playstyle requires more perfection and a really strong team(also in defence) to pull off. We did this with the Barca of 2009-2012. 2015 was different, as we tried to give MSN the ball asap and they were good enough to win us the games.

 

[Devils]

One of the greatest pics in football history.

The moment the GOAT snatched Atletico's soul.

I've never seen such levels of domination.

The biggest big game player in history.

 

[Raketa10]

One of the greatest pics in football history.

The moment the GOAT snatched Atletico's soul.

I've never seen such levels of domination.

The biggest big game player in history.

Sorry I don't see Messi in this pic.

 

[Judoman]

Messi and his teams play this way since always.
Tito, Tata, Lucho, Ev, all Argentinian NT coaches....
.

While there is logic in your assessment here are some holes/questions:

- If you put CR for Messi in Barca in the last 5 years, does Barca win CL-s?
- If you put Messi for CR in Real in the last 5 years, does Real NOT win CL-s?

 

[Cule4life]

Snip.

So you're saying Ernie has no balls to confront the seniors, which people have been saying for ages.

So you're saying Ernie has no system except pass the ball to Messi, which people have been saying for ages.

So you're saying Messi is the culprit here and no manager would make a difference, which no one has said ever.

So why do you defend Valgreen so much? If by your logic no manager would make a difference what does it matter to you if Valgreen is gone. We are doomed anyway until the scrub Messi is sold, right?

OR....maybe i'm just spitballing here....another manager who knows how to establish attacking patterns in his team, can get the best out of Messi while adding more varied and unpredictable attacking patterns to break down physical and bus parking teams. Surely that's not outside the realms of possibility?

OR our only way out is to go full Juve, buy giants and pump in crosses?

The moment the GOAT snatched Atletico's soul.

If Atleti had a soul it was crushed long ago by Ramos and Ronaldo.

 

[Raketa10]

I watched some CR7's and Messi's CHAMPIONS LEAGUE goals from the last few seasons to try to find more patterns WHY is CR7 scoring all the time and Messi isn't.

I am really starting to believe that football and defending are different in CL knockout rounds compared to La Liga.
As said in some other topics, for La Liga, Barca's and Pep's style is the best: keep the ball, keep possession, play shortpassing-technical football through the middle.
Against weaker and midtable La Liga teams, that approach is more efficient than hurling crosses and playing direct (CR7's Real Madrid).

But, when it comes to matches against Atletico, Juve, Bayern, English teams, our football (and Messi) aren't that lethal anymore and suddenly RM's and CR7's type of football is turning into a more efficient weapon.

As said before, the most obvious reason is that CR7 can score BOTH with feet and with head after crosses.
While Messi and Barca can score only with FEET.
So, in a CL against big boys, RM and CR7 had 2 scoring options, while we have only one (passing through the ground).

But now I am seeing one more pattern:
In a CL, majority of CR7's goals are scored in the same way:
RM's midfield would get the ball from their own half into the opponent's half.
But in a final 3rd, they would mostly pass the ball to their WINGERS, who would then throw crosses for CR7 in the box or they would try low crosses/passes for CR7 who is attacking the box.
So, majority of passes/crosses/assists for CR7 are coming from wing's positions.

With Barca and Messi, there is a difference in our build up:
RM used their midfielders to get the ball to a final 3rd.
And once when the ball is THERE, they would usually use their wingers and fullbacks as main passers into the box.

With Barca:
We use our midfield to get the ball into the opponent's half.
But then, unlike Real, we AREN'T using wingers as key playmakers, but we usually KEEP on playing through the middle both in the edge of the box and in the box.

So, passes/crosses for CR7 come from wings positions. His shots/goals are 1 or 2 touch shots, he don't keep the ball too much.
Plus, in majority of goals in these type of actions, he is left isolated 1 vs 1 or ALONE against defenders.
So, in CR7's type of actions/goals, he ALMOST NEVER have to score/shoot surrounded by 2-3-4 defenders.

On the other hand, Barca and Messi, we are passing EVERY SINGLE ball to Messi.
And he is rarely attacking the box and the most often he is WAITING for the ball at the edge of the box.
So, instead of attacking a box, he is waiting at the edge of the box with the idea: I will get the ball, surrounded by 4 opponents and I will somehow score.

Again, our tactics work in La Liga since the opponents are technically, tactically and physically weaker.
But as our last few CL exits has shown (Bayern 0:4, Atletico 0:1, Atletico 0:2, Psg 0:4, Juve 0:3, Roma 0:3), we are quite easy to neutralize in a CL with that one-dimensional, slow and predictable approach:
1. passing through the middle
2. passing every ball to Messi
3. Messi trying to score surrounded by 3-4 opponents at the edge of a box
4. Messi being able to score only with feet
5. due to a nature of our slow possession game, whenever we attempt a shot, an opponent usually has 8-9-10 defenders in the box, unlike in CR7's case where he is marked by 0, 1 or 2 players at most

Now, for example, take a look at some of his compilation CL's videos.
80-90% goals are scored in that way: pass the ball to a flank in the final third, play fast, CR7 will attack the box, a cross/low cross will create a huge havoc in the box, he will usually stay alone or 1 vs 1 with a defender and that's it.
Also, CR7 almost NEVER has to score against 10 defenders in the box, because his team plays faster and isn't forcing/inviting an opponent to park a bus in their box:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HafYtNCDvc8

And then, Messi's goals where he needs to score EVERY SINGLE goal with:
1. dribbling through 2-3-4 defenders to actually GET into a chance to finally shoot on goal
2. or scoring after an action THROUGH THE MIDDLE (1-2s or through balls from midfielders), where again, our passes are coming from the middle and from midfield players and very rarely from wings positions.
Cule4Life or someone will reply: that is due to Ernie NOT playing wingers.
But imo, the truth is: this is how Messi's teams are playing.
Messi played the same for the last 5-6-7 years and he plays the same for Argentina.
He is just dropping deep and roaming as some sort of Cam, false 9, playmaker, "10".
And when he gets the ball, he is 30 meters away from a goal.
While, when CR7 gets the ball, he is like 5 meters away from a goal with only a goalkeeper infront of him.

So, basically, for Messi to score, he needs to make a wonder and dribble past 3-4 players.
While CR7's goals look like simple (and not too magical or hard) tap ins.
But then again, imo, Messi needs to score magic goals BECAUSE we are FORCING the opponents to defend that way against us and since we don't have other weapons than to score through the middle after some magical action:

In a CL, Messi can't score "simple tap ins" due to a nature of our style and his style.
For him to score, he needs to pull a magic and dribble past 3-4 defenders and then execute a perfect shot and through the legs of 2-3 defenders and to finally beat a goalkeeper.
It seems as if he has to do everything, give 200% PLUS also to get lucky in that action to actually score.
On the other hand, CR7 is scoring for fun in a CL due to his physique, positioning, off the ball movement, nature of his game and passing patterns of his teams.

Sadly, on a highest level, it is WAY EASIER to mark and neutralize Messi than CR7.

You said that perfectly but I would sum it up with few observations. Our managers after Pep were pathetic as it gets and they didn't know how to use the GOAT. Their ONLY tactics were give ball to Messi and wait for wonder to happen. During his career Ronaldo played under Ferguson, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Zidane and now Allegri. On the other hand Messi played under only ONE great manager and that's Pep. Under him we were the best team in history. So to be fair there is no need for repeating the same old story all over again. We need a world class manager and not poor's man Mourinho. Imagine you have a GOAT in your team and no tactics at all. How pathetic is that? There was ONLY one season when Messi wasn't playing all alone and that was 14/15 and what happened? We won everything! Not scoring with the head is not the problem since Suarez should be doing that. Problem is the way we play. Yes Ronaldo can score with the head but Messi can make the perfect pass out of notthing! Problem is that perfect pass becomes irrelevant when Suarez needs 5 clear chances to score. Anyone with basic football knowledge can see that Messi does MUCH more than just scoring.

TO SUM IT UP: ONE PLAYER DOES NOT MAKE A TEAM! MESSI NEEDS TO BE A CHARY ON THE TOP OF THE CAKE AND NOT THE ENTIRE CAKE!

 

[Messigician]

You said that perfectly but I would sum it up with one observation. Our managers after Pep were pathetic as it gets and they didn't know how to use the GOAT. Their ONLY tactics were give ball to Messi and wait for wonder to happen. During that time Ronaldo played under Ferguson, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Zidane and now Alegri. On the other hand Messi played under only ONE great manager and that's Pep. Under him we were the best team in history. So to be fair there is no need for repeating the same old story all over again. We need a world class manager and not poor's man Mourinho. Imagine you have a GOAT in your team and no tactics at all. How pathetic is that? There was ONLY one season when Messi wasn't playing all alone and that was 14/15 and what happened? We won everything!

ONE PLAYER DOES NOT MAKE A TEAM! MESSI NEEDS TO BE A CHARY ON THE TOP OF THE CAKE AND NOT THE ENTIRE CAKE! Simple as that.

I find your post extremely revisionist and simplistic.

1 a great manager does not equal success, look at mourinho, LVG at United, Ancelotti at Bayern...

A manager is needed that suits the club for example klopp wouldn't fit with the Barca playing style

 

[Alik]

Obviously when you play non-stop and have played the most mins in Juve, then you need some rest. I know you think of him as a god, but Ronaldo is also human.

Also Ronaldo have played more mins than Suarez and Messi. Actually played around 400 more mins than Messi this season so far.

You misunderstand. I think it's completely logical to rest before a CL knock-out game. Messi and Suarez, who are far less fit than Ronaldo, should do the same.

As for Messi's minutes, that's only because he has been sidelined from injury. Ronaldo has played a lower % of available minutes than him.

It isnt about comparing just overall minutes, but we always fail in the CL because there isnt a enough rests PRIOR to the big games. Messi can rest 5 games at the start of the season, but play every match during our hectic and toughest period can still yield the same result. 3 days before a crucial CL tie and still played a full 90 is nonsensical. At least he rested before the Chelsea game last season and delivered.

Messi definitely played lesser because he was out for a few games. Had he not been injured I can guarantee hew wpuld have played all of them. Hence much lesser than Ronaldo.

Yup.