Cr150

[serghei]

Ok, but in their prime:
Muller had 3 CLs in a row 74, 75, 76 + World cup 74
Van Basten 2 Cls in 1989 and 1990 and Euros in 1988.

What was Messi's prime?
2 Cls in 3 years or 3 Cls in 7 years?

Muller on his prime had only 5-6 CL attempts.
Van Basten had 4 (2 wins, 1 final).

So, even if you look at primes, when you remove emotions and Barca glasses, it is hard to say: Messi's peak was better titles wise.

Again, that's even without NT titles.
About Muller, ok, Germany was always strong.
But Dutch were eternal losers with zero titles ever.
Their only NT title ever came in 1988 with Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard.
Euro 88 had only 5 matches per team.
Van Basten scored 5, scoring for 2:1 against Germany in semis in the 88th minute and scoring for 2:0 in a final against Russia.

So, both Muller's and Van Basten's CL peak was equal or better than Messi's.
Yet, both of them paired CL streaks with World cup/Euros where both Muller and Van Basten were top scorers, key players and scored winning goals in semis and finals.

Yet our GOAT Messi has zero goals on a WC in his career, iirc.

The only thing in which Messi is better is consistency in La liga and longetivity.
And magical solo runs in his prime.

This is why you can't compare eras. Too many things are different. You can only look at what you see in your time. And based on that, Messi and Ronaldo are the best I've seen.

That's the best conclusion we're gonna get.

 

[MagIX]

This is why you can't compare eras. Too many things are different. You can only look at what you see in your time. And based on that, Messi and Ronaldo are the best I've seen.

That's the best conclusion we're gonna get.

Exactly

And judging a player by checking wikipedia, or youtube,... or according to the titles won by the team he played for

 

[BBZ8800]

Exactly

And judging a player by checking wikipedia, or youtube,... or according to the titles won by the team he played for

I didn't watch Muller.
But have watched Van Basten, Romario, R9, Rivaldo, Batistuta, Shevchenko, Ruud, Henry, Ronaldinho, Messi, Cr7, Etoo.

Each of those guys has pros and cons in lots of areas.

As I have said before, according to numbers, Messi, Cr7 and Lewa are in top 5 scorers of all time. Suarez is also around those spots.

So what? Are suddenly all the best players of all time from the last decade?
Or their numbers on a club level are inflated due to insane differences in wealth between big and small teams due to marketing&income boom in internet era.

 

[eaman]

I didn't watch Muller.
But have watched Van Basten, Romario, R9, Rivaldo, Batistuta, Shevchenko, Ruud, Henry, Ronaldinho, Messi, Cr7, Etoo.

Each of those guys has pros and cons in lots of areas.

As I have said before, according to numbers, Messi, Cr7 and Lewa are in top 5 scorers of all time. Suarez is also around those spots.

So what? Are suddenly all the best players of all time from the last decade?
Or their numbers on a club level are inflated due to insane differences in wealth between big and small teams due to marketing&income boom in internet era.

They are all greats but one thing we will never know is how well van basten or even more so Muller would've done in this era where pretty much all defenders are athletes and dont play unless they are 100 percent fit or close all the time

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

This is why you can't compare eras. Too many things are different. You can only look at what you see in your time. And based on that, Messi and Ronaldo are the best I've seen.

That's the best conclusion we're gonna get.

Just a few words but a big truth.

 

[MagIX]

I didn't watch Muller.
But have watched Van Basten, Romario, R9, Rivaldo, Batistuta, Shevchenko, Ruud, Henry, Ronaldinho, Messi, Cr7, Etoo.

Each of those guys has pros and cons in lots of areas.

As I have said before, according to numbers, Messi, Cr7 and Lewa are in top 5 scorers of all time. Suarez is also around those spots.

So what? Are suddenly all the best players of all time from the last decade?
Or their numbers on a club level are inflated due to insane differences in wealth between big and small teams due to marketing&income boom in internet era.

No, because top scorer doesn't mean best player.

For the rest i tend to agree, there are too many factors to consider, not possible to compare eras.

 

[soul24rage]

This is why you can't compare eras. Too many things are different. You can only look at what you see in your time. And based on that, Messi and Ronaldo are the best I've seen.

That's the best conclusion we're gonna get.

Same sentiment.

 

[serghei]

Same sentiment.

I mean, it's hard enough to compare keepers with defenders with midfielders with forwards, each having their own role, without comparing players born 30-40 years apart and doing some mental gymnastics to get one legend on top of another. As if any generation will not plead the case to death for the ones they saw playing the most.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Same sentiment.

Thats true for most sports, how can you compare players who played 50 years apart in different competitions under very different circumstances, these types of discussion are always very subjective.

Easiest way to compare is perhaps how someone dominates his competition.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Two best players in a history of football.

Messi has abysmal NT career and 1 CL in Barca's last 10 years.

If Messi and CR7 are two best finishers ever, you know that something is fishy, that a current era has too huge differences between big and small teams, that it is easier than ever to statpad goals, there are more league matches, more NT matches and those two had a chance to play a CL for 15 years in a row unlike Muller, Van Basten and co.

We don't know that yet. Let's see someone repeat the same numbers and then we will talk.

 

[JohnN]

Firstly, you need to acknowledge the obvious predefined result BBZ is trying to get to with these arguments.

Then, you need to understand that the arguments have already been debunked in the past in another thread.

Afterwards, just go see any video, read any analysis, compare any stat, do what your heart desires, between Messi - CR and everyone else in this era or the previous eras.

If you have been watching football for more than a month, you should be able to spot that Messi and Ronaldo have set an unprecedented level for this game.

Everyone will defend the "era" in which they started watching football, BBZ you should have spoted this pattern in yourself as well, being a wanna be phycologist and all.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Btw. If Higuain scores breakaway in World Cup final Messis NL career is a great success. Bullshit to even talk about shit like that.

Saying his NL career is total crap is not true. He didn't happen to win, but that doesn't make it bad.

 

[Alik]

Ok, but in their prime:
Muller had 3 CLs in a row 74, 75, 76 + World cup 74
Van Basten 2 Cls in 1989 and 1990 and Euros in 1988.

What was Messi's prime?
2 Cls in 3 years or 3 Cls in 7 years?

Muller on his prime had only 5-6 CL attempts.
Van Basten had 4 (2 wins, 1 final).

So, even if you look at primes, when you remove emotions and Barca glasses, it is hard to say: Messi's peak was better titles wise.

Again, that's even without NT titles.
About Muller, ok, Germany was always strong.
But Dutch were eternal losers with zero titles ever.
Their only NT title ever came in 1988 with Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard.
Euro 88 had only 5 matches per team.
Van Basten scored 5, scoring for 2:1 against Germany in semis in the 88th minute and scoring for 2:0 in a final against Russia.

So, both Muller's and Van Basten's CL peak was equal or better than Messi's.
Yet, both of them paired CL streaks with World cup/Euros where both Muller and Van Basten were top scorers, key players and scored winning goals in semis and finals.

Yet our GOAT Messi has zero goals on a WC in his career, iirc.

The only thing in which Messi is better is consistency in La liga and longetivity.
And magical solo runs in his prime.

Iniesta in his prime won Euros in 2008 and 2012. And World Cup in 2010. And CL in 2009 and 2011. As well as a Sextuple in there, and Ligas along the way.

So he is the GOAT.

 

[Morten]

Btw. If Higuain scores breakaway in World Cup final Messis NL career is a great success. Bullshit to even talk about shit like that.

Saying his NL career is total crap is not true. He didn't happen to win, but that doesn't make it bad.

Higuains was the most embarassing miss, and the worst, but it feels like no one remembers that Messi had a clear cut chance to put Argentina ahead as well.

 

[malvolio]

But have watched Van Basten, Romario, R9, Rivaldo, Batistuta, Shevchenko, Ruud, Henry, Ronaldinho, Messi, Cr7, Etoo.

Each of those guys has pros and cons in lots of areas.

was too young to watch van basten play in his prime. for me, the only players that can compare to messi and CR7in terms of performances and grinding out wins for their respective teams are the three brazilians - R9, rivaldo and ronaldinho. unfortunately none of them had the consistency, luck with injuries and circumstances in their favour. as good as messi and CR7 are, they had it incredibly good with some immense teams and managers to help them.

R9 - had the talent to be in the same bracket as messi. unfortunate with injuries, otherwise(with the WC wins included) he would have been the best ever.
rivaldo - was only unfortunate to land at a barcelona club run by idiots like gaspart. very very good when he turned it on and for me he scored the greatest hat-trick ever in one of the best performances ever in a game

ronaldinho - had the same fear factor for opposition teams as messi does. too bad he got lazy and fat.