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KingLeo10

KingLeo10

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Temptation said:
PSG is the definition of a "super team", especially in that joke of a league.
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No one cares about French League. You see me celebrating Messi's or (Neymar's or Mbappe's) french league titles? Besides, that's still just 1 year. CR7 also spent 3 years at Juve which isn't as bad as PSG but still owned the Serie A for a decade.

Nah, we're talking about their primes and the support they had in their primes. You can't tell me CR7 didn't have better teammates for longer (and better managers) than Messi did in his prime/or around their primes?


Super team, more broadly, is a "top 3" team in the world for me. Aka a team in contention for League + CL.
 
T

Temptation

Well-known member
Both had basically the same level of teammates in their career.

Actually Messi encountered bigger legends in his early career than Ronaldo. Dinho, Eto'o, Henry are better than Gigg, Scholes, Keane.

Coming to managers, Barca is a weird club. They haven't hired many top coaches in this era. Even Pep was a newbie when they hired him. So CR7 had the better club coaches but that's balanced by the fact that Messi had more stability with Barca DNA, also being brought up on Catalan Soil(and hormones). Messi didn't have to go through as many surrounding changes as Ronnie and started at a top tier club.


KingLeo10 said:
No one cares about French League. You see me celebrating Messi's or (Neymar's or Mbappe's) french league titles?
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Actually worse. Did you see the Messi thread after the Clermont Limb game? :lol:
 
KingLeo10

KingLeo10

Senior Member
Messi's had better teammates at NT level but Messi's done more with his NT than CR7.

CR7 didn't even play 80% of the final he gets credit for. And other than that run, he's been a R of 16 merchant. Messi's reached the WC final and many other NT finals.

Temptation said:
Actually worse. Did you see the Messi thread after the Clermont Limb game? :lol:
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How does this relate to the notion of me not considering French League a serious league? Been consistent on this for years.
 
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Temptation

Well-known member
KingLeo10 said:
Messi's had better teammates at NT level but Messi's done more with his NT than CR7.

CR7 didn't even play 80% of the final he gets credit for. And other than that run, he's been a R of 16 merchant. Messi's reached the WC final and many other NT finals.
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Compare Portugal's results pre and post Ronaldo. Do the same with Messi and Argentina.

Also, Messi was as good as a benchwarmer basically in that final against Brazil, so that's not a point you should count on. And Messi has had plenty, plenty of opportunities of playing in Copa A finals. It's a privilege which not even the best European national teams get, let alone lil Portugal.

In that 2014 WC, it's not like Messi was lighting it up in the knockouts. Basically reached that because of a better team than Ronaldo has. So if Messi had that Portugal team, he'd exit in that stage too.
 
KingLeo10

KingLeo10

Senior Member
Temptation said:
Also, Messi was as good as a benchwarmer basically in that final against Brazil, so that's not a point you should count on.

In that 2014 WC, it's not like Messi was lighting it up in the knockouts. Basically reached that because of a better team than Ronaldo has. So if Messi had that Portugal team, he'd exit in that stage too.
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:lol: These aren't counter arguments. These are fanboy tier hypotheticals

Messi had better teammates (not by too much though; Portugal since 2016 has had a top squad; look how they've been favored in 2018 WC and 2020 Euro). I acknowledge this point and add that Messi has a WC final (not a trivial achievement), 2 Copa finals, a Copa win (v Brazil). Don't know how much to weigh the Olympics and Finalissima but I'll add them as a footnote.

CR7 has Euro 2016 (didn't really play the final). WC semis, Euro 2012 semis, and 2004 Euro finals. Other than that, GS or R of 16 exits. I don't think he was the dominant player of Portugal in either 04 or 06 and they still had a lot of other good players. Don't know how much to weight the Nations League but I'll add it in as a footnote.
 
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Temptation

Well-known member
KingLeo10 said:
:lol: These aren't counter arguments. These are fanboy tier hypotheticals

Messi had better teammates (not by too much though; Portugal since 2016 has had a top squad; look how they've been favored in 2018 WC and 2020 Euro). I acknowledge this point and add that Messi has a WC final (not a trivial achievement), 2 Copa finals, a Copa win (v Brazil). Don't know how much to weigh the Olympics and Finalissima but I'll add them as a footnote.

CR7 has Euro 2016 (didn't really play the final). WC semis, Euro 2012 semis, and 2004 Euro finals. Other than that, GS or R of 16 exits. I don't think he was the dominant player of Portugal in either 04 or 06 and they still had a lot of other good players. Don't know how much to weight the Nations League but I'll add it in as a footnote.
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We can keep pretending that Copa and Euros are the same but it's not. Playing in 2 or 3 Copa finals is barely an achievement for a country like Argentina. It's a 10 team tournament which has been organised 4 times in the last 6 years. Come on now. :lol:
 
Catta

Catta

Senior Member
Temptation said:
And I was defending my fellow poster, not myself.
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No need to defend someone who was the biggest Messi fanboy and Ronaldo hater in the past.

If Messi didn't decline and kept scoring 40-50 goals for QSG he would have still be his fanboy.
 
fergus90

fergus90

Senior Member
Argentina hadn't won a major tournament since 1993 so when Messi made his debut they were already 12 years without a trophy and were not making the Copa final with anywhere near as much regularity.

It's fine to prefer Ronaldo but this Ronaldo has had worse teammates and better opposition argument is nonsense.

A lot of his goals are against cannon fodder too- Luxembourg, Andorra, Faroe Islands, Estonia etc.
 
CatalinR10

CatalinR10

Senior Member
Euros have slightly stronger teams on paper in the KO's than Copa America but the 2016 one was a joke.

Portugal finished 3rd in the group and had no business advancing but thanks to that new dumb rule they made it out of the groups.

Then they played vs Croatia (ranked 15 in Fifa ratings before the tourney ) in the round of 16 , which they won in extra time.

Then they played vs Poland (ranked 26 in Fifa ratings before the tourney ) in the quarters and won on penaldos

Then they played vs Wales ( ranked 19 in Fifa ratings before the tourney ) in the semis and won on regular time.

They played vs France ( imo the favorites on paper to win the tourney ) in the final where CR went out after some mins and won the game in extra time due to a fluke goal in extra time.


Saying that Messi has it easier internationally while that Euro was pretty much handed to Cr , is a joke.

Messi also won more and was MVP of every type of tourney he played with Argentina.

Only thing CR has above him in this area is the goalscoring record which he farmed with teams like Estonia , Luxembourg , Andorra , Lichtenstein and such. Put Messi in Europe to farm vs these kind of teams in his prime and he would have had 170+ goals at this age.


Also I don't know where this ideea that Messi has a better team than CR came from , they won Euros without him on the field against a much stronger France , not to mention that they're stacked now with a lot of insanelly classed players.
 
MagIX

MagIX

Senior Member
Temptation said:
We can keep pretending that Copa and Euros are the same but it's not. Playing in 2 or 3 Copa finals is barely an achievement for a country like Argentina. It's a 10 team tournament which has been organised 4 times in the last 6 years. Come on now. :lol:
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And again this non sense..

... as if Argentina is traditionally a strong team :facepalm:
WC 1978 Argentina won the WC because they bought (Juan Peron dictatorship) the match Peru-Argentina...
WC 1986 becauase of Maradona who performed the best WC performance ever...but he couldn't win a CA, not even with the team he won the WC 1986..actually he never even reached a CA final.
Since 1959 Argentina won CA 2x (1991 and 1993), before 2021 (62 years) Argentina won the CA twice... incredible achievement!
 
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Fati_Future_BallonDor

Fati_Future_BallonDor

Well-known member
Both had their golden years, Messi when he played in Pep era, Ronaldo between 14-18. Since 2019 Ronaldo and Messi's team mates were on the same level until Ronaldo went to Manu and Messi to PSG, paris is obviously better.

fergus90 said:
Argentina hadn't won a major tournament since 1993 so when Messi made his debut they were already 12 years without a trophy and were not making the Copa final with anywhere near as much regularity.

It's fine to prefer Ronaldo but this Ronaldo has had worse teammates and better opposition argument is nonsense.

A lot of his goals are against cannon fodder too- Luxembourg, Andorra, Faroe Islands, Estonia etc.
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I think he has spoken about the tournaments, it's way more difficult to win EURO than copa america. Qualification is way harder in south america though.
 
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