khaled_a_d
Senior Member
I am giving figure of speech example, not lying to anything.
And again, you are calling "his opinion" lie. Like you know really what he thinks.
I am giving figure of speech example, not lying to anything.
And again, you are calling "his opinion" lie. Like you know really what he thinks.
Leo_Messi
New member
Is this some kind of language barrier problem here or what is going on? I don't care about his personal opinions. Everyone that has two eyes and watches our games would call his bullshit out. Not defend it. Not only that, I highly doubt that he truly believes what he is saying himself.
I know that you have a habit of defending Valverde here but even you must be able to call out such nonsense.
Forget Bartofeo's comments. Do YOU honestly believe that he is true to our football philosophy? Do YOU believe that he manages the games well? Do YOU believe that he should get a contract extension before this season is even over? Do YOU believe that last season was "great"? What is great about winning a league title against a historically bad RM and the worst Atlético de Madrid in the Diego Simeone era and an Atlético de Madrid that could not even advance from their CL group or defat mighty Qarabag in two games even once? Or maybe it was winning the CdR where the team only faced one difficult opponent (on paper) and that was Sevilla in the final where we arguably played our best game of the season? Or the "great" performance against Roma or even against Chelsea? Or in the group stages where our only good game was against Juventus at home?
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Stop trolling.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
What language barrier? You bring in Bartou comments, call it a lie and when people tell it isn't you bring an old post and call other defending EV
I tell it doesn't matter what you think of EV, even if you think he is worst thing etc. We are calling you for calling Bartou lyer for stating his own opinion
Hmm, no.
You bring one argument and you are changing it the way you want. I am not entering another EV useless debate. At this point it is just boring.
This isn't about my opinion or your on EV anyway
But calling Bartou lyer for stating his opinion
And even if he doesn't believe in that, and just supporting manager in "35 second interview" What is he supposed to say? He will always talk great about his coach. You are getting mad and calling him for nothing here (especially when there are ton of other reasons to get mad on him)
This like player saying "it was always my dream to play for a great club with great history like Racing Santander" when he joins a new team. You know it is meaningless but everyone has to say that. Or when a player joins RM or Barca and get asked about Cr7 or Messi, he will always answer the player he is joining, sometimes they truly mean it, others they are just being polite and in both cases they are neither
What Bartou says to the public holds zero value, same for coaches and even players in 90% of cases. They know they have to go out for those interviews they don't like because it is part of the job, and they just give same politically correct answer.
Leo_Messi
New member
What language barrier? You bring in Bartou comments, call it a lie and when people tell it isn't you bring an old post and call other defending EV
I tell it doesn't matter what you think of EV, even if you think he is worst thing etc. We are calling you for calling Bartou lyer for stating his own opinion
Hmm, no.
You bring one argument and you are changing it the way you want. I am not entering another EV useless debate. At this point it is just boring.
This isn't about my opinion or your on EV anyway
But calling Bartou lyer for stating his opinion
And even if he doesn't believe in that, and just supporting manager in "35 second interview" What is he supposed to say? He will always talk great about his coach. You are getting mad and calling him for nothing here (especially when there are ton of other reasons to get mad on him)
This like player saying "it was always my dream to play for a great club with great history like Racing Santander" when he joins a new team. You know it is meaningless but everyone has to say that. Or when a player joins RM or Barca and get asked about Cr7 or Messi, he will always answer the player he is joining, sometimes they truly mean it, others they are just being polite and in both cases they are neither
What Bartou says to the public holds zero value, same for coaches and even players in 90% of cases. They know they have to go out for those interviews they don't like because it is part of the job, and they just give same politically correct answer.
It's a lie and nonsense (as I wrote initially) as he is quite clearly bullshitting. He might have told that the suns rises in west and not the east and you would have told me that he cannot lie or bullshit as this is his "personal" opinion. As I told you, I could care less about his personal opinion.
Me getting mad on him is a culmination of 8.5 years of this current board's "great" work overall.
Anyway my comment about his comments was not the main theme or point of my initial post which was about Bartomeu publicly stating (once again but this time more clearly) that he intends to renew with Valverde. His typical nonsense comments just annoyed me after reading this (for me) very bad news.
So yes, I am NOT happy about the prospect of Valverde being the manager for my club for another year when this season has not even ended and when we don't know about the alternatives. I am not exactly jumping around out of sheer joy when hearing such comments. So no, I am not at all in favor of the board committing to Valverde already now which looks to be the case. Partially also because the seniors of the team probably want it which is another problem that I have discussed in this very thread. Here Valverde's only guilt is that he has not the authority that the board would have wished for (or so I imagine) and that his weak personality fits perfectly for the seniors as they have nothing to fear.
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Luftstalag14
Culé de Celestial Empire
This is much sadder news than De Jong joining PSG.
I guess I will just watch less and less of our games until he is gone.
I guess I will just watch less and less of our games until he is gone.
Joan
Well-known member
Sun rising in the east and setting in the west is a fact (only 2 days a year, if we want to be precise). What you think about Valverde is not. Football is a dim area. People view things in different ways. Apply different criteria. But Bartomeu wanting to renew Valverde says he believes at least some things from that interview. Had he thought Valverde was bellow average, would he want to renew him?
Leo_Messi
New member
Football can also be factual. One thing which is factual is that Valverde is not "true" to the Cruyff model nor our playing style. How can any sane person claim otherwise? Or that Valverde is managing games the right way. In particular against Roma (and so many other games) this was incredibly evident.
Or the bright idea in already offering Valverde a renewal without considering the alternatives and without knowing how this season will end. Which club is exactly lining Valverde up for their next project for the board to try to make a deal with him as quickly as possible? Is he a very sought after manager? Maybe I have missed something here?
Yes, just like the board believed in Martino before him, Gomes, Arda, Vidal, Mina and countless of other transfer failures.
Are you going to deny that this team lacks an identity, that Valverde's tactics or whatever the hell we shall call his "playing style" is reason to be negative or concerned? Are you going to deny the fact that the team should be playing much better considering the squad and our spending? I could go on forever but it is fruitless.
When photos speak thousands of words.
Forget this photo for a while. We are playing horrible football compared to the players that we have at our disposal.
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Messi983
Senior Member
Agreed.
37 years old Joaquin is playing regularly for Betis (yes, he's a club legend and still very good at that age) so why would people expect Setien to drop 5-6 years younger Pique, Busi, Raki, Suarez?
I know, I was just refering to many people here believe having a high possesion is a sign of a good/attacking football. It could be but not always. When you're not creating chances a high possesion is useless as [MENTION=15376]DonAK[/MENTION] said and this is happening to Betis regularly this season. I prefer to have 55-60% possesion and create 3-4 good chances than having a 70% possesion and have 1-2 chances.
I like Setien from his days at Las Palmas. He's a good coach. But I think he became too conservative over the last season since he started to use 3-5-2. I've enjoyed watching Betis in first half of the last season when they've scored a lot of goals but they also conceded even more (remember that 3-5 win in Seville derby). He had to do something to improve them defensively and he did that when they bought Bartra last January and he decided to play with 3 at the back. I've expected him to get back to 4-3-3 with players like Carvalho and De Celso brought last summer but he sticked to 3-5-2.
Their struggles in the final third are probably also up to the players so it's not only Setien's fault. Sanabria is injury prone and Loren is looking like a one (well, more like a half-season) season wonder. And they don't have a good RWB. I still believe they would be better by using 4-man defense and Canales/Tello/Joaquin/Inui and recently singed Lainez as wingers. Now it seems Inui will leave this month. I was reading Betis fan forum yesterday and most fans are unhappy with that decision. There are also a lot of similar complaints there about Setien than we see here about EV. Obviously, this is just a fan thing because we always find something to be unhappy about. It's also easier to change a coach than half of the team. But overall I got an impression that majority of Betis fans wouldn't mind to see Setien go.
At the same time he's a fan favourite (according to the latest poll http://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/15325-Who-do-you-want-as-Bar%E7a-manager-next-season ) to become our next coach and I believe the main reason for that is because Betis is playing with a high possesion that people here are obssesed with.
I wouldn't him if Valverde decides to leave at the end of the season but at the same time I think after 3-4 months here people would see Setien is not really who they expected him to be and most impatient fans would probably start to call for his head because he would still stick to the old guard/ because he would play Dembele as a wing-back or for other reasons.
As [MENTION=15376]DonAK[/MENTION] said I would also prefer Machin over Setien but his 3-5-2 might not be welcomed by the people who are convinced we should play 4-3-3 and 4-3-3 only. It's obvious Machin won't go away from a system that brought him success so if we would choose him we would know that from the beggining and we'd need to adjust our team.
Personally I would even take Eusebio over Setien right now though that's unlikely given how his episode at Barça B finished as I think he's still butthurt we've selected Lucho over him in 2014. I think he has developed as a coach over the last few years and has adapted now in Girona. He started with his prefered 4-3-3 but he saw after a few games things didn't go well so he got back to Machin's 3-5-2 that players are used to play. If you're managing at a smaller club and can't afford to buy players that fit your system as a coach you should adapt your system. And Eusebio has done that and it's working for Girona so far but a lot can change in second part of the season.
In opposite to general opinion on barcaforum I think Valverde has done a good job adapting too. We can financially afford to buy 95% (or more) of the players we want though we obviously can't buy them all so I'm not comparing us to Girona. But how many of the players we've bought in his 18 months here were explicitly signed on Valverde's request? Zero, though Paulinho and Vidal fit into his system well. And yes, I believe he has a system which is actually pretty good but people just don't like it because it's not primarily focused on possesion/control - here we go again.
As [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] said many times our team is made out of leftovers from Lucho's (and previous coaches all the way back to Pep) team, we have/had last year a few players bought by some of our former sport directors and we've signed Cou, Arthur, Dembele and Malcom over the last year while Valverde has apparently asked for players like Parejo and Willian who he thought would fit better his idea of football. I don't think we've made wrong decisions by signing players we did (most of them anyway) but then it's hard to blame a coach for not getting the best out of the players he didn't want in first place. Valverde needed to adapt his way of thinking (and coaching) football to work with the players he has at his disposal and not the ones he'd rather have. No Barça coach had a full autonomy on the transfer market but previous coaches except Tata (who was against signing a CB because he believed Puyol will recover) got at least one player they wanted.
Pep made some terrible decisions on the transfer market (Ibra-Eto'o swap, Chygrinsky - he was so in love with his passing that he overlooked all of his other attributes that were not as good, Cesc, Hleb) but also some great ones like Alves and return of Pique. He was mostly successful because of his coaching talent and golden generation of La Masia though.
Tito wanted and got Alex Song as a CB. And then we've speed up negotiations to sign Neymar on his request IIRC though Tito sadly never had a real chance to work with him.
Tough to say who is responsibly for which signing but I think Lucho got his wishes fullfilled with Suarez, Mathieu, Gomes, probably Bravo as well (this could be more on Unzue or Zubi though).
So based on this it's pretty much a big hit or miss every time we let coaches decide who we should sign (but it's close to the same story when SD/other people inside the club were responsible for the signings as well) and I'm not saying we should let EV/future coaches have more autonomy on the signings, especially not at the club where coaches last 2-3 years at most. But at the same time I still belive it's better to give a coach one or two players who he wants than spent money on the players he doesn't want. It's impossible to compare our coaches situation to PL managers like Pep or Klopp who have built their teams exactly like they wanted so they can play their brand of football. Coaches at Barça don't have that luxury so they have to work with what they get and I think Valverde has done a good job so far so hopefully he'll stay.
People can call me Valverde apologist all they want. I admit I like him and would keep him over any of the options in the poll posted above. He's not perfect (no coach is) but i still believe too much **** is thrown at him after every game even when he actually doesn't do anything wrong.
Respekt_III
Anti-everything
So people on reddit think he's a great coach, are they fucking delusional?
I hope he goes at the end of the season, cant deal with another year of this shit.
I hope he goes at the end of the season, cant deal with another year of this shit.
Leo_Messi
New member
I usually like your posts (one of the better posters on this forum, consider that as a friendly compliment) but what exactly makes you outright like Valverde and what makes you believe that he is the best option out there currently or that he deserves a contract extension? Do you honestly enjoy the football that is being played by the team ever since Valverde was appointed? What exact system or footballing philosophy can you spot? Or long-term visions?
What exactly has Valverde done that is so good? He won a league title last year (a league that we have been dominating for the past 30 years, in particular post 2003) where his greatest rivals were the worst RM (domestically) in years and the worst Atlético de Madrid side in Simeone's era. An Atlético de Madrid side that was unable to even advance from their group in the CL and who failed to defeat the mighty Qarabag FK twice in the group stages. In the CdR our only difficult (truly and considering that this is a 2 leg knockout tournament which makes upsets notoriously more difficult) rival on paper was Sevilla in the final where we played our arguably best offensive game in the entire season.
Or was it that horrific CL group stage performance (where we barely scored more than 1 goal per game and were our only good game was against a largely decimated Juve at home) or the very unconvincing performance against an very average Chelsea side that ended up missing a top 4 spot? Or dare I say the "performance" against Roma? BTW, people naturally only remember the return leg but it's not like the first leg was convincing. I remember cursing my TV and saying that we would be kicked out if we played similarly in the return leg and that is exactly what happened.
As for this season, a bit of the same story. We are not very convincing or good domestically, our rivals are just worse and statistically this was one of our worst starts in recent memory. CL performances have been the highlight of the season but that has more to do with the fact that the players (seniors in particular) are aware of our recent failures in the CL so they are more fired up than the usual game. Group stages being group stages is also what it is, not a great or big challenge for us.
Genuinely curious.
Anyway agree with Pablo Machín being the superior tactician, manager and prospect compared to Quique Setién although I have not read that particular pervious discussion.
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Of course Valverde will continue with the team.
He came in and revived Iniesta for a good final season, after Iniesta was being phased out the prior year. He got Alba to again be one of the best players on the team, after Alba was being benched for Digne. The young new talent Dembele and Arthur are making major contributions. The established stars are continuing to produce at high levels despite advancing age. The only complaints from key players have been about insufficient rest in the second half of last season, we'll see how this goes this season. This season, Valverde has done fine work juggling too much talent at certain positions, alternating Dembele/Continho and Arthur/Vidal with great success. Valverde gets blamed for not playing players who are not playing well, but it would be stupid to put them on the field just because they are young.
Barca will never again play like it did in the Xavi/Iniesta era. Of course, the team has not been able to replace those two with midfielders who can finish second and third in the Balon d'Or.
This season, the team has recovered from a bad stretch in Liga, the current winning streak may continue for quite a while. In about half of the games, the offense is spectacular, the best in the world. Like last weekend. In the other half of the games, the team still tends to gut out good results.
A veteran team like this, with this talent level, most of all it needs a manager who will not screw it up. If you look at what the players say, and what the results say, Valverde has not screwed it up.
He came in and revived Iniesta for a good final season, after Iniesta was being phased out the prior year. He got Alba to again be one of the best players on the team, after Alba was being benched for Digne. The young new talent Dembele and Arthur are making major contributions. The established stars are continuing to produce at high levels despite advancing age. The only complaints from key players have been about insufficient rest in the second half of last season, we'll see how this goes this season. This season, Valverde has done fine work juggling too much talent at certain positions, alternating Dembele/Continho and Arthur/Vidal with great success. Valverde gets blamed for not playing players who are not playing well, but it would be stupid to put them on the field just because they are young.
Barca will never again play like it did in the Xavi/Iniesta era. Of course, the team has not been able to replace those two with midfielders who can finish second and third in the Balon d'Or.
This season, the team has recovered from a bad stretch in Liga, the current winning streak may continue for quite a while. In about half of the games, the offense is spectacular, the best in the world. Like last weekend. In the other half of the games, the team still tends to gut out good results.
A veteran team like this, with this talent level, most of all it needs a manager who will not screw it up. If you look at what the players say, and what the results say, Valverde has not screwed it up.
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