Is Leo Messi the greatest sportsman of all time do you think?

[El Flaco]

As the title says...

 

[JamDav1982]

Hard enough to compare footballers from different generations let alone different sports

 

[El Flaco]

Hard enough to compare footballers from different generations let alone different sports

Maybe.

But football is probably the most popular sport in the world in numbers of participants and therefore, it's way harder to reach the elite compared to other sports.

No one has been able to stand out as much as Messi has done throughout the history, especially consider from what I said above.

 

[Barcaman]

Once his career finishes we'll be more objective and have more data to assess.
For the time being let's just enjoy the show. Because we all know, we won't see anything like this in our lifetime.

 

[6 Ballons for Messi]

Good thing the title is changed as per my instructions.

Now, he def is among the greatest but one would have to have an understanding of many sports and to have witnessed the GOATs of these sports to judge. How would one compare messi to jordan or sullivan or federer?

 

[JamDav1982]

'

Maybe.

But football is probably the most popular sport in the world in numbers of participants and therefore, it's way harder to reach the elite compared to other sports.

No one has been able to stand out as much as Messi has done throughout the history, especially consider from what I said above.

How can you compare the dominance of Messi to say Michael Jordan, Usain Bolt, Tiger Woods or Roger Federer.

Impossible really regardless of sports popularity.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

Mostly this, although some things can be said. For example Federer has one of the greatest style of play and incredible stats with a 5 year period of dominance, but Messi has already moved past him in terms of titles (Federer is not too far from Nadal and Djokovic now, while no one gets close to Messi's individual + collective title)
I guess same can be said for jordan, i'm not sure that he holds any significant record any more, and if he does other players have gotten really close.

I do think it's silly to compare sportsmen of different sports, but the margin by which they dominate it can be approximated.

 

[JamDav1982]

Mostly this, although some things can be said. For example Federer has one of the greatest style of play and incredible stats with a 5 year period of dominance, but Messi has already moved past him in terms of titles (Federer is not too far from Nadal and Djokovic now, while no one gets close to Messi's individual + collective title)
I guess same can be said for jordan, i'm not sure that he holds any significant record any more, and if he does other players have gotten really close.

I do think it's silly to compare sportsmen of different sports, but the margin by which they dominate it can be approximated.

What titles can you compare Messi and Federer on?

Even records don't mean best and can't be compared between sports - what records can Messi/Jordan be compared on.

Counter argument could be Jordan won everything there was to win in his sport.

I think you could choose any of those I mentioned and take areas they dominated more than others.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

sure, some niche areas maybe. Safe to say messi dominates his game more, looking at the average amount of dribbles/genius passes/G+A/% pass completion etc... Messi's cocktail is by far and away the best in world football for years & years.

Federer (huge fan here) has his 'black spot' just like messi (argentina) with Nadal and rolland garros, and perhaps now djokovic, depends how you look at it.
But his stats aren't as impressive as Messi's, meaning the second best player is a lot closer to Fed than to Messi. And his titles & individual records aren't as unattainable as Messi's either.
Take out 3 or 4 seasons from federer and the rest looks good, not greatest in his sport material. Messi is only 28 but take out 3 or 4 seasons and he still has a few massive ones in the tank. About Jordan, you could say magic johnson was more complete (i hear everyone say it), he didn't win more MVP titles or NBA titles than anybody else, just very close to the top, etc.

Messi is pretty much as close as it humanly gets to perfection. He's complete as in an all time great in football's three "main" areas (dribbling playmaking scoring) insanely and distinctively talented, and has a shitton of collective and individual titles to show for it.

Had he won with argentina than i bet lots of people would be having this debate

 

[raskolnikov]

How about Messi vs Gretzky?

 

[JamDav1982]

sure, some niche areas maybe. Safe to say messi dominates his game more, looking at the average amount of dribbles/genius passes/G+A/% pass completion etc... Messi's cocktail is by far and away the best in world football for years & years.

Federer (huge fan here) has his 'black spot' just like messi (argentina) with Nadal and rolland garros, and perhaps now djokovic, depends how you look at it.
But his stats aren't as impressive as Messi's, meaning the second best player is a lot closer to Fed than to Messi. And his titles & individual records aren't as unattainable as Messi's either.
Take out 3 or 4 seasons from federer and the rest looks good, not greatest in his sport material. Messi is only 28 but take out 3 or 4 seasons and he still has a few massive ones in the tank. About Jordan, you could say magic johnson was more complete (i hear everyone say it), he didn't win more MVP titles or NBA titles than anybody else, just very close to the top, etc.

Messi is pretty much as close as it humanly gets to perfection. He's complete as in an all time great in football's three "main" areas (dribbling playmaking scoring) insanely and distinctively talented, and has a shitton of collective and individual titles to show for it.

Had he won with argentina than i bet lots of people would be having this debate

Maybe second best player is closer to Fed as he has arguably two of the best three or four players of all time in his era.

Its a can of worms that is impossible to compare.

How can Fed match up to collective titles.

Look at Jordan - still holds scoring records. Top scorer ten times and seven consecutively in way to winning everything he could. Also won defensive accolades etc so dominated both ends.

Not saying these guys are better but can't really compare as for instance Jordan had a bigger impact in a time where teams were more evenly matched due to caps etc. Flip side is he could be more impactful as smaller sided team game.

How can we compare Bolt to Messi?

Bolt is the most dominant sportsman I have ever seen, more so than Messi but does that make him better?

 

[Mitchell1978]

Comparing between sports is stupid or at least very difficult.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

Maybe second best player is closer to Fed as he has arguably two of the best three or four players of all time in his era.

Its a can of worms that is impossible to compare.

How can Fed match up to collective titles.

Look at Jordan

Yea it's a can of worms. But it's not impossible to compare. It's impossible to get near the truth. Much, much more so than more usual, intra sport comparisons etc. And obviously those discussions are never won/ended either.

titles = trophies. And then there are individual "achievement" titles and recognition. Even federer doesn't get close to messi's combination of the two. And the area in which Federer is trailing the most is probably titles, not individual recognition, as he is regarded as the goat of tennis perhaps more so than messi is regarded as the goat of football, whilehis resumé just isn't as outstanding (i think both are goats in their sport- Federer's raw talent puts him there imo)
For my money, i do think that messi dominates his sport more than federer did his (gonna stick with the fed example because i know his career very well). And yes djoko and nadal are two of the very best ever but for example djoko has a realistic chance of surpassing federer. Even if he was somewhat less talented, with the state of tennis these years he would still get very close to fed.

Jordan - you may be right, i don't know basketball enough. But magic johnson played not so far away in time from him and i know people who rate him as the goat, and most people rate him as more complete. Lebron too now. And Curry is probably the best 3 point taker in the history of the sport.

Messi doesn't have competition on this level.
Juninho is a better free kick taker. I don't see another aspect in which messi is clearly inferior in terms of goalscoring, bar headers and we should avoid that detail or compare him with players who approximate his height lol.
Passing- Messi has it all.
Dribbling- Has it all.

Anyway i've said my piece, we don't disagree on anything, just slightly different interpretations of what a comparison can be.

 

[JamDav1982]

Yea it's a can of worms. But it's not impossible to compare. It's impossible to get near the truth. Much, much more so than more usual, intra sport comparisons etc. And obviously those discussions are never won/ended either.

titles = trophies. And then there are individual "achievement" titles and recognition. Even federer doesn't get close to messi's combination of the two. And the area in which Federer is trailing the most is probably titles, not individual recognition, as he is regarded as the goat of tennis perhaps more so than messi is regarded as the goat of football, whilehis resumé just isn't as outstanding (i think both are goats in their sport- Federer's raw talent puts him there imo)
For my money, i do think that messi dominates his sport more than federer did his (gonna stick with the fed example because i know his career very well). And yes djoko and nadal are two of the very best ever but for example djoko has a realistic chance of surpassing federer. Even if he was somewhat less talented, with the state of tennis these years he would still get very close to fed.

Jordan - you may be right, i don't know basketball enough. But magic johnson played not so far away in time from him and i know people who rate him as the goat, and most people rate him as more complete. Lebron too now. And Curry is probably the best 3 point taker in the history of the sport.

Messi doesn't have competition on this level.

Can't compare titles between Messi and Jordan for example when Messi can potentially win six in one year.

Individual accolades is difficult as well as it doesn't consider the standard of other great players in their era etc.

It is not a common thought that either Magic Johnson or Lebron are best ever and even hearing some people say they are 'more complete' sounds familiar. You will hear people even now claim that about Messi v Ronaldo.

Federer had two of the greatest of all time to compete against and has won more majors than any player ever. Can't make that comparison to Messi who has been in one if europes top teams since 17.

How would you compare Messi to Bolt?

 

[khorne]

There is no such thing as a greatest sportsman of all time. But for the sake of the argument: no, not even close. The only shaky approximation of a fair comparison between different sports would be to compare athletic performance, and if we do that, messi or any other football player are a complete joke against the majority of world class athletes.