Joan
Well-known member
If true, means more than Rakitić potentially staying. Means Valverde will extend.
Ivan Rakitić
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
If true, means more than Rakitić potentially staying. Means Valverde will extend.
Arizona Scott
New member
I don't agree fully with this take, bc I think he does various important things to winning matches not often recognized here, but I see mostly fairness in it, agree to disagree.
I do not think Thiago nor Verratti would have worked out nearly as well as Rakitic had. I agree with the mistake of Fabregas and having trying more to work in Thiago. Still just look at their international play--I know who looks the better of the 3 through last summer. BTW Rakitic was playing left central frequently, not a DCM, and it really was him and Modric together who bossed the middle of the park against every opponent they played. If someone didn't know from his Barca days he wasn't one of the top 10 or so all around midfielders in global football, the world cup (and the qualifiers) should have left no doubt.
Can't speak for BBZ but I was thrilled all around because Barca players together were making great football plays. Love to see Arthur's growth and integration, great sign for the future and now I think the sky is the limit for trophy prospects this year. This is in no small part to him and his unique skillset, along with the skillsets of about 14 other players (Rakitic included) I think Barca can truly count on in the biggest moments this year can bring.
Yeah Rakitic has been world class. Outside of Real I think he would have been in the first 11 for anyone else (maybe a tough call whether he for Fernandino would get the call for City, tough call for Atletico too--maybe not with the way Simeone plays but I wouldn't count him out of that club either). "World class" is not Iniesta and Xavi. They are all time greats and generational players.
Yeah I don't get it either, with him there seems a bit over the top negativity. Most the criticism for him you could equally apply to Busi and some others. It is him, Suarez, Roberto & Pique that I think get the habitually underappreciated around here. Not perfect players, but very good players who have helped win trophies and continue to help the squad to this day.
I was bigtime on Kante midway through Leicester's season. Modric would have been great buy but I think they would have had to sit behind Xavi, Iniesta & Busi so tough sell at that point. Never understood how Real got Kroos so cheap and agreed would have been great to go for him.
KDB would have been expensive--but clearly great player already. Noone knew how well Eriksen or Bernardo Silva would adapt but yes yell of potential buys with the benefit of hindsight.
Isco, no thanks. And we think we are frustrated with Coutinho.
Not that you mentioned it, but I actually thought Arda would be good at Barca, man was I wrong on that one. Thought Cesc would be better too. With hindsight clearly involving Thiago more would have been better.
Arizona Scott
New member
Personally, I like Ivan "excellent all around player" Rakitic better.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
For such an all round player, a sizable chunk of his game consists of dump off passes to Roberto wide open on the wing.
What exactly makes Rakitic world class? Because if Busquets is not WC at the moment (which most Rakitic fans consistently say), then Rakitic sure as shit isn't. Hell, I don't even think Busquets is at a world class level this season. Your "data" backs that up too, Busi outperforms Rakitic in:
-key passes in both Liga and CL by a significant margin
-dribbles per game
-Tackles + interceptions per game combined
-aerial duels
Busquets also covers only like 1-2 meters less per minute played than Rakitic in the CL. Arthur is well ahead of both and Vidal runs the most in the squad.
Rakitic did play well yesterday. And yet I still saw that Arthur, Busi, and Vidal had a more noteworthy impact on the pitch. Arthur should be an undisputed starter, and Vidal coming on for Raki changed the momentum of the game after we conceded and he had a hand in 2 goals.
Vidal, like Busquets, outperforms Rakitic in practically all offensive and defensive stats per 90 minutes.
Arizona Scott
New member
I already said my criteria for world class, being basically being in 11 for most any club in the world. Can you tell me 5 clubs in the world where he wouldn't start.
On top of his Barca performances, if it wasn't obvious in his international play he was world class, I don't know what sport people are watching.
If we want to talk about qualities, most of the time the right thing to do is to pass to the wide open guy. Passing accuracy (much better than Vidal, maybe not Busi or Arthur level), great and instinctive first touch (probably behind only Busi--one of the best to ever play in that regard), positional awareness (equal to Busi--fantastic), supporting the defense against crosses and shots (best on the team among midfielders).
The composite metrics show Busi was a hair better than Rakitic last year, and a hair better this year (whoscore does, squawka favors Rakitic but I think that one is biases towards minute splayed) . Got no problem with that. They both are way ahead of Arthur or Arturo this year--though honestly I think the stats gaps from these two (particularly squawka) are bigger than the actual gap from my own eye, I think they are all pretty close when you look at both their total contributions when Barca has possession and when they don't.
Personally I think Arthur, Rakitic and Busi should start the big games and Vidal going in as a high energy sub for Rakitic or Arthur at 45-75 minute mark (usally toward 70) given fatigue, opponents and situation. For once Valverde got subs exactly right yesterday--I hope a good trend.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
You've gone from citing ratings from a tabloid (the Guardian) to citing ratings from an algorithm. The kind that, for most of their careers, rated Fabregas was superior to Iniesta. Are you not capable of interpreting data for yourself? Most of your arguments seem to appeal to the authority of a rating or "the BBZ data"
Vidal has as many appearances as a substitute as he does as a starter, more in fact. Any use of statistics that quantifies "per game" is skewed against him.
Per 90 minutes, Vidal is significantly ahead of Rakitic in tackles + interceptions, aerial duels, key passes, clearances, blocks, etc. Also has the same amount of assists and almost as many goals in half as many minutes played. Vidal also runs 26 meters more per minute played in the CL than Rakitic which is a massive difference.
Why do you keep insisting that stats and data favor your argument when they actually don't? At this point you're just blatantly asserting non truths. The stats do not favor Rakitic over Busquets or Vidal at all. I'd rather not have to start citing every single number to prove it to you, if you could read for yourself.
You talk about passing to the wide open guy as if that's the end all be all for good awareness in play. Even Andre Gomes could do that.
I see no technical superiority from Rakitic over Vidal at all. You can cite pass % all you want but Rakitic is far more conservative and unchallenged in his play compared to Vidal. He actively avoids areas of the pitch where he would face pressure, ending up just sitting around the CB's/RB recycling possession. We've seen plenty of times when Raki looked absolutely inept when truly pressured to use elite technique. If he was as active and daring as Vidal in all areas of the pitch his efficiency would plummet.
Tell me how you can possibly think that Rakitic is better than Vidal defensively? It has absolutely no basis in reality.
Arizona Scott
New member
Dude, do you know how to interpret data? It it my real job. Sports is my hobby. I am pretty confident I have not used The Guardian for a data source. As I have been plainly identifying I have been using whoscored primarily, also using squawka and raw data from transfermarket.
Pull my threads and you will see I am VERY skeptical of using composite data across leagues, and I always use it as just one slice of performance. In my area we use the word "holistic" to make data driven decisions, recognizing the fallacy of most data available to predict human behaviors, events or future performance. The data available are tools, useful to get some big picture information and check biases, but never the complete picture. Why you want scouts making holistic impressions beyond data, but the age of scouting and informing playing decisions without using data is LONG GONE in professional sports.
In terms of BBZ, don't know him or her, but I appreciate the thought processes behind the posts I have seen.
Hello, are you in there, I had already made this point in the post just prior to yours....
Let me help you here. Composite metrics are good because they weigh different elements, you don't get to pick and choose for this player I'll focus on this, for that player I'll focus on that. It is a good effort to try to look at things without bias. Just go head and go to the end column that says rating. https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/65/Show/Spain-Barcelona
Then you can split it up by League and CL. You will find relative to other metrics it is not that tied to minutes played, for instance Cillessen, Miranda and Rafinha all look good in CL play, but of course we would not interpret anything other than take from it the 1 game they played in the CL they did alright (at least in terms of the things we measure in a football match). Another lesson with data is make sure there is a sufficient sample size, generally the larger the sample size the more precise it is informative for future predictions.
If you are truly Andres Iniesta, with amazing football IQ, I apologize. But as best I can tell you are just a fan who interprets data poorly at best and with manipulation at worst (or cherry picks) and doesn't read others posts very well. Let's see, do I go with my own judgement from watching every Barca match for years (and I saw quite a bit of Vidal for Juv, Bayern and Chile), what the data suggest, and what the coaches who train with these players and have their careers and likelihood at stake OR your 1cent. Not a tough choice for me.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Once again, your post is just line after line of non-truths. I don't know why you keep posting such blatant lies when it's so easy to prove wrong.
-You claim you "didn't cite the Guardian", yet you cited it in a post quoting me claiming that Rakitic was great against Tottenham....... because of ratings from a Guardian article. Were you not appealing to the authority of a British tabloid? Did you not claim that Rakitic was great over 90 minutes against Tottenham with all round play?
This great memory you boast of watching every match, doesn't seem to be agreed upon by others: http://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/11662-4-Ivan-Rakitić/page517
-15+ posts (that weren't mine) that make the point that Rakitic had a poor overall performance despite a great goal. Rakitic had more turnovers than anyone except Messi that day and directly played a hand into multiple attacks from Tottenham.
-You claim to be skeptical of 'composite metrics' and yet cling to them as your only source of data, despite the fact that Vidal is mostly used as a sub. If you think the sample size is small for someone like Vidal, would you care if I showed you data from last season or prior? The data over several seasons has Vidal as statistically superior to Rakitic in practically every department, which correlates with this year. This is talking 100+ appearances in Bundesliga/Serie A/CL. Is that enough sample size for you???
-You claim to understand statistics and yet I don't think you even know what the definition of a "key pass" is. I don't think you've made a single argument referring to ACTUAL football statistics, just ratings. Why talk stats if you don't want to actually talk stats? Your "holistic review" is an algorithm, the kind that said Fabregas>Iniesta over their careers or that Dani Parejo is one of the very best midfielders in Europe right now, etc. I could go on and on about how these holistic metrics fail to capture the true value of a player based on a number of factors.
At the end of the day, you claim that I am the one who cherrypicked data while BBZ used it honestly. Lmfao. How is it cherrypicked when the data over several seasons shows Busquets AND Vidal to be significantly superior to Rakitic in almost every major statistical category? Not one or two. SEVERAL major categories, many of them the most important ones.
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/22732/History/Ivan-Rakitic
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/25008/History/Arturo-Vidal
Your own precious ratings have Vidal higher than Rakitic in every single season since the beginning of 14/15, including in the UCL except for 17/18 (in which both players had low ratings). Only this year when Vidal is playing far less and mostly as a substitute is his rating less.
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Arizona Scott
New member
Let's try again. As a general guideline, don't compare stats across leagues. Now i recall the guardian piece which was just a random pull to have an outsiders perspective on one match.
Again the composite whoscored metric is tool. Suggests busi was a hair better than rakitic last year--not surprised at all bc he still is a great player. The most recent update for this year shows rakitic ahead this year, either way the differences are so small i wouldn't interpret much from it.
Again in wouldnt compare bundesliga and serie a to la liga, but lets say we do. In whoscored over the last 5 years vidal might be better than rakitic. Could go either way from what i have seen and the metrics. Vidal is an impactful player and i was all for the signing.
This year, with the sample size in both la liga and the cl (more limited), rakitic and busi come out the best. The unbiased composite rankings--if you care to look at them as i keep directing you to.
Either way i dont have big quibble if someone says arturo should start, or even rakitic on the bench. What i do take issue is with bullcaca that barca will be drastically better with rakitic on the bench. Nothing in the data suggests this, nothing in my eyes suggest this, and professional coaches dont think this. But a 1cent fan does, great, you have a right to an opinion.
Again the composite whoscored metric is tool. Suggests busi was a hair better than rakitic last year--not surprised at all bc he still is a great player. The most recent update for this year shows rakitic ahead this year, either way the differences are so small i wouldn't interpret much from it.
Again in wouldnt compare bundesliga and serie a to la liga, but lets say we do. In whoscored over the last 5 years vidal might be better than rakitic. Could go either way from what i have seen and the metrics. Vidal is an impactful player and i was all for the signing.
This year, with the sample size in both la liga and the cl (more limited), rakitic and busi come out the best. The unbiased composite rankings--if you care to look at them as i keep directing you to.
Either way i dont have big quibble if someone says arturo should start, or even rakitic on the bench. What i do take issue is with bullcaca that barca will be drastically better with rakitic on the bench. Nothing in the data suggests this, nothing in my eyes suggest this, and professional coaches dont think this. But a 1cent fan does, great, you have a right to an opinion.
Arizona Scott
New member
DonAndres, let me test your memory. How many yellow card worthy fouls did Arturo have in the 1st half of the champions league final against Barcelona? How many were borderline red? Here are career numbers (transfermarket), Vidal 468 matches, 131 yellows, 4 expulsions for 2 yellows, 1 strait red. Busi is 513, 120, 1, 1 & Rakitic 600, 66, 4 and 0. Overall they are all relative infrequent but Vidal fouls more and has been tossed more, then when I reflect on the Juve match—yeah a bit more worrying than the other two about fouls
Look I am really happy to have Vidal, but if he is in our starting 11 and odds makers are predicting a barca red for our side, he is going to have the highest odds among our midfielders. Given his aggression and age, what I would do is bring him in the 45-70 minute mark (likely for Rakitic or Arthur depending on their fatigue, how each is playing, and game situation). I admire his emotion, his hustle, his competitiveness and he is a good footballer (used to be a great footballer). He can change the energy on the pitch in a very good way, but there are some risks with him relative others for my full comfort level. This is what I would do (use him as a sub), this is what Valverde did this week in the 1st big test of an elimination match for a major trophy pursuit, and is my hunch the coaches will do the same assuming all 4 core midfielders are healthy and fresh in the CL and there play going into the match is at the level we have seen lately. But you think you know better than me, the data and Barca coaches. Yeah right.
I admit I forgot about the Guardian reference, and I didn't use it as an authority of empirical data but to exposure how out of wack some opinions here were with neutral observers. I can admit a mistake and despite efforts to be as fair and unbiased I am not perfect. I did not remember I found that Guardian match report, yet I did and I shared it--within the context I just stated.
By the way did you retract or correct your blatant misinterpretation and misread when I brought attention to Jovic and Werner's (and others) assists to goal and assist per game stats at their current Bundesliga clubs? And I brought the context it is not the be all end all, but could be a red flag on a team where assisting is as critical or maybe more than scoring. You were as wrong as you could be despite your initial arrogance and smugness thinking “oh I have caught you” and bringing in some small hatchet you have to grind. I was inclusive, using up to 3 years of data (the length he has been at Leipzig as greater sample than the half year this year—I’m not either one’s agent nor do I have a particular stake, attachment or reactance to any of them. To be they are just prospects that might help Barca be better. I am not the one with trouble with the truth, balance, nor seeking approval from other board members.
Just doing an imperfect job with my eyes as a long time fan of the club and players, and including data on players when there is so obvious and unreasonable bias for some (Rakitic is part of the Suarez, Roberto & Pique club of scapegoats and the undervalued) and exaggerated belief in the next new shiny player. To take it very from different to performance metrics but another relatively objective big picture source of data, there is a reason Rakitic is valued on transfermarket at 65mil, only less than Busi at 75 mil, with Arthur at 50 and Vidal at 20. It isn’t because of his last transfer (18 mil) nor is it because of his wage--Busi and Vidals are higher. It is because the rest of the world view what a few tunnel vision Barca fans don’t, the guy is a great midfielder—shown to be world class for club and country (I recognize people have different definitions as world class but when you would start for just the clubs or national teams in the world sans a couple to me that is world class--but whatever). Personally I think Barca probably should sell him or Busi for within 15 mil of that market value this summer—and just watch so many big clubs drool to get either one of them. I think it is the right time to cash in and get younger--doesn't mean he isn't going to be key to going for a treble this year.
Look I am really happy to have Vidal, but if he is in our starting 11 and odds makers are predicting a barca red for our side, he is going to have the highest odds among our midfielders. Given his aggression and age, what I would do is bring him in the 45-70 minute mark (likely for Rakitic or Arthur depending on their fatigue, how each is playing, and game situation). I admire his emotion, his hustle, his competitiveness and he is a good footballer (used to be a great footballer). He can change the energy on the pitch in a very good way, but there are some risks with him relative others for my full comfort level. This is what I would do (use him as a sub), this is what Valverde did this week in the 1st big test of an elimination match for a major trophy pursuit, and is my hunch the coaches will do the same assuming all 4 core midfielders are healthy and fresh in the CL and there play going into the match is at the level we have seen lately. But you think you know better than me, the data and Barca coaches. Yeah right.
I admit I forgot about the Guardian reference, and I didn't use it as an authority of empirical data but to exposure how out of wack some opinions here were with neutral observers. I can admit a mistake and despite efforts to be as fair and unbiased I am not perfect. I did not remember I found that Guardian match report, yet I did and I shared it--within the context I just stated.
By the way did you retract or correct your blatant misinterpretation and misread when I brought attention to Jovic and Werner's (and others) assists to goal and assist per game stats at their current Bundesliga clubs? And I brought the context it is not the be all end all, but could be a red flag on a team where assisting is as critical or maybe more than scoring. You were as wrong as you could be despite your initial arrogance and smugness thinking “oh I have caught you” and bringing in some small hatchet you have to grind. I was inclusive, using up to 3 years of data (the length he has been at Leipzig as greater sample than the half year this year—I’m not either one’s agent nor do I have a particular stake, attachment or reactance to any of them. To be they are just prospects that might help Barca be better. I am not the one with trouble with the truth, balance, nor seeking approval from other board members.
Just doing an imperfect job with my eyes as a long time fan of the club and players, and including data on players when there is so obvious and unreasonable bias for some (Rakitic is part of the Suarez, Roberto & Pique club of scapegoats and the undervalued) and exaggerated belief in the next new shiny player. To take it very from different to performance metrics but another relatively objective big picture source of data, there is a reason Rakitic is valued on transfermarket at 65mil, only less than Busi at 75 mil, with Arthur at 50 and Vidal at 20. It isn’t because of his last transfer (18 mil) nor is it because of his wage--Busi and Vidals are higher. It is because the rest of the world view what a few tunnel vision Barca fans don’t, the guy is a great midfielder—shown to be world class for club and country (I recognize people have different definitions as world class but when you would start for just the clubs or national teams in the world sans a couple to me that is world class--but whatever). Personally I think Barca probably should sell him or Busi for within 15 mil of that market value this summer—and just watch so many big clubs drool to get either one of them. I think it is the right time to cash in and get younger--doesn't mean he isn't going to be key to going for a treble this year.
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