Lionel Messi - v7

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

10-11 is definitely among the top seasons(=>GOAT level),but you have to consider that that team had prime Xavi,prime Iniesta,prime Alves,prime Pedro,lethal Villa etc coached by Pep. I mean EVERYTHING was clicking and working perfectly,so it was "easier" for Leo to shine and perform at an alien level.

Compare this to EV teams for example

I think that his dribbling was definitely A LOT better those days,as his acceleration and quick movements were out of this world.

His passing IQ was even back then great,but I tend to believe that he mastered that skill a little bit further on during his career(14/15 comes to mind)

Obviously his freekicks back then were considerably below his level(15/16 to 18/19 was his peak)

Finally his finishing has been mostly at the same level during the past 10-11 seasons. The thing is that he changed the way he scores goals. If you watch highlights from back then,most goals were solo efforts or clever exploitation of space made possible by his teammates or even tiki taka goals.

A classic example is that up until ~2014 he scored many chip goals.

Nowadays he scores many goals outside the box,which was not the case back then.

His performances for argentinia were also top in terms of dribbling and creating chances so i wouldnt say that his performances at barca were mainly because of xavi/iniesta. Otherwise i agree, i miss his chip goals, he scored soooo many in until 12/13.

 

[serghei]

Full agree, the madrid side was waaay harder to beat than the injured bayern side in 2015. Real was really good that season with peak Mou magic and peak Ronaldo. They had beaten us in copa final 1-0 shortly before. If i remember correctly we werent so much better than madrid until Messi scored.

Yea, that 4 Classicos in a row from back then were incredibly tough games. You could say that those were the best 2 teams in Europe at that point in time. With Bayern semi, it was a tough game, but we looked superior from the start, we just faced an incredible Neuer that kept Bayern in the game with some awesome saves.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

It won't change much and it won't persuade anyone about anything,but if he leads this team to the double after the atrocious beginning of the season,it will definitely be viewed as a special achievement.

Yeah could be true but i think most people outside dont give a fuck about la liga and copa anymore (not my view) thats why i think Messi could boost his legacy really hard if he wins another Cl or argentinia title.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Yea, that 4 Classicos in a row from back then were incredibly tough games. You could say that those were the best 2 teams in Europe at that point in time. With Bayern semi, it was a tough game, but we looked superior from the start, we just faced an incredible Neuer that kept Bayern in the game with some awesome saves.

Right, madrid was the only team which could have beaten us imo with these bus parking mou tactics. If we wouldnt have won CL madrid would have done it.

 

[Morten]

Don't think so tbh. That Madrid semifinal was tough as nails, I could feel it during the game, the pressure was insane, and there were basically a couple of decent chances all game until Messi sentenced the tie with those goals. I feel that, after the 5-0 Classico, Madrid really were a different team, Mourinho was so shaken by that defeat that he brought the best he could come up with in terms of elite management, and that was peak Mourinho mind you (2010-12 was his best period). Their level in the late 2010-11 season and 2011-12 was very very high. I see that Madrid as superior to the injury-ridden Bayern from 2014-15.

Lets not forget that were down a player at the time(that was Pepe's fault, btw), would Barcelona have been able to score 2 goals with 11 vs 11 on the pitch? Maybe not, i reckon if Pepe was on the field he would have been there to pull Messi down, and not let him go on a run.

But there was always a risk of a red card when Mourinho had us playing that way, and if Pepe had gotten a red on Messi instead of Alves, i doubt the ultimate outcome would have changed.

 

[Windhook]

I'm on the opinion winning La Liga is Barca's priority (the double), but it will add crumbs to Leo's legacy. Copa America is the big prize this summer.

 

[KingLeo10]

I'm on the opinion winning La Liga is Barca's priority (the double), but it will add crumbs to Leo's legacy. Copa America is the big prize this summer.

Doubt Argentina can beat Brazil.

 

[Windhook]

Doubt Argentina can beat Brazil.

You'll never know. Copa America is unpredictable, not like the CONMEBOL WC qualifiers.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Brazil will be really hard to beat but last time argentinia was better and had the better chances but were unlucky to lose. Dani alves had played excellent.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Lets not forget that were down a player at the time(that was Pepe's fault, btw), would Barcelona have been able to score 2 goals with 11 vs 11 on the pitch? Maybe not, i reckon if Pepe was on the field he would have been there to pull Messi down, and not let him go on a run.

But there was always a risk of a red card when Mourinho had us playing that way, and if Pepe had gotten a red on Messi instead of Alves, i doubt the ultimate outcome would have changed.

Uff forgot about the red card, this just shows how good mou has prepared real against barca, 11 vs 11 was very difficult and this with the best barca side in history !

 

[serghei]

Lets not forget that were down a player at the time(that was Pepe's fault, btw), would Barcelona have been able to score 2 goals with 11 vs 11 on the pitch? Maybe not, i reckon if Pepe was on the field he would have been there to pull Messi down, and not let him go on a run.

But there was always a risk of a red card when Mourinho had us playing that way, and if Pepe had gotten a red on Messi instead of Alves, i doubt the ultimate outcome would have changed.

Personally, don't think that 11 vs 10 made that much of a difference in terms of Madrid's defense structure, basically, a 4-5-1 turns into a 4-5-0. If anything the sending off meant we entered a zone where the 0-0 would've been the worst possible result for Barca, and this relaxed us a bit, but it's not like the Madrid defense was exposed or anything.

The goals could've happened just the same 11 vs 11 imo. Madrid lost any hope of nicking a goal on the counter since their counters were basically dead in 10 vs 11.

 

[BarcaOG]

Don't think so tbh. That Madrid semifinal was tough as nails, I could feel it during the game, the pressure was insane, and there were basically a couple of decent chances all game until Messi sentenced the tie with those goals. I feel that, after the 5-0 Classico, Madrid really were a different team, Mourinho was so shaken by that defeat that he brought the best he could come up with in terms of elite management, and that was peak Mourinho mind you (2010-12 was his best period). Their level in the late 2010-11 season and 2011-12 was very very high. I see that Madrid as superior to the injury-ridden Bayern from 2014-15.

yeah--clasicos after the 5-0 were tense, tough, and violent affairs...

 

[Morten]

Personally, don't think that 11 vs 10 made that much of a difference in terms of Madrid's defense structure, basically, a 4-5-1 turns into a 4-5-0. If anything the sending off meant we entered a zone where the 0-0 would've been the worst possible result for Barca, and this relaxed us a bit, but it's not like the Madrid defense was exposed or anything.

The goals could've happened just the same 11 vs 11 imo. Madrid lost any hope of nicking a goal on the counter since their counters were basically dead in 10 vs 11.

I disagree there, it did have an impact on the defense structure of our team, one man less means a bit more space for Barcelona, and dont forget, Pepe wasnt playing CB this time, he was CDM with the instruction to follow Messi wherever he went.

Not much of significance happened up until Pepe got sent off, if i recall.

But like i said, Mourinho having us playing that way had its drawbacks, when you play cynical and defensively, it can go that way.

 

[serghei]

I disagree there, it did have an impact on the defense structure of our team, one man less means a bit more space for Barcelona, and dont forget, Pepe wasnt playing CB this time, he was CDM with the instruction to follow Messi wherever he went.

Not much of significance happened up until Pepe got sent off, if i recall.

But like i said, Mourinho having us playing that way had its drawbacks, when you play cynical and defensively, it can go that way.

Sure, a bit more space. but in the key zones, space will be roughly the same. A sending-off means more space in non-key zones (for example, usually you ditch the most advanced player, the one player who is applying some sort of incipient pressure on the other teams' build-up). The ball usually arrives more often to the attacking players, but once it arrives, the conditions of play are similar with 11 v 10.

There are zones of very high importance, that will be covered roughly the same, even with a man short. The cost is that you won't be able to pose a threat on the counter, since the guy who is supposed to keep the ball when you try to break is missing.

It's 4-5-1, vs 4-5-0. The 1 is a key player for a counterattack. Not that key for defending purposes.

If you look at the goals, Madrid never had numerical inferiority. Because they had everybody behind the ball, they always had the numbers to block Barca defensively. Let's not even talk about the 2nd goals where Messi took on 5 players.

Not saying that it made zero difference, just that Messi could've scored those goals even in 11 vs 11. It was not a decisive factor imo. Without Messi genius, that match is bang on for a 0-0 peak Mourinho style. The plan with 11 vs 11 was roughly the same, with probably more hope for a lucky 1-0 escape win.

 

[Morten]

Sure, a bit more space. but in the key zones, space is the same. Meaning that when you lose a man, the ball usually arrives more often to the attacking players, but once it arrives, the conditions of play are similar with 11 v 10.

Not saying that it made zero difference, just that Messi could've scored those goals even in 11 vs 11. It was not a decisive factor imo. For the 2nd goal, it's not like he was all alone, he had to go through the whole team of Madrid, about 4-5 players.

Just curious, if Pepe was in Messi's area before the 0-1, you dont think he would have just pulled him or kicked him down?
That was essentially the task Mourinho set him up for in that game anyway.