Lionel "The Greatest of All Time" Messi

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

not only slowest, but with many players who were either not fitting or plain poor. also worth to mention the managers we had, valverde being the decent one tbf. setien and koeman were terrible.

We lacked at least one player after Ney left and Messi got old who could run fast with the ball. Normally Dembele should have been this player but no....

 

[DonAK]

Agree these days you need pace. Liverpool and Bayern are showing how to play on top level.

The fact that the team doesn't work with Messi is due to Messi himself, you could see very often this season how PSG played fast and had to stop again and again because Messi waved his hand from behind and demanded the ball instead of running into the penalty area.

Would Barca be stronger with peak Messi? Yes. With current Messi? Definitely no.

I'm not even talking about or taking the current Messi into consideration, but I'll leave it to you to make a comment and completely miss the point and regurgitate what everyone else have said already.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

I'm not even talking about or taking the current Messi into consideration, but I'll leave it to you to make a comment and completely miss the point and regurgitate what everyone else have said already.

you guys went crazy yesterday when ppl mentioned barca would be weaker with Messi but maybe i have just dreamed that

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Its laughable how usual haters bring him when something is good as he was the root of all evil that was happening to us in last years.

Let me get this straight, you think that in this xaviball system, where even dembele 'can' make simple job of hugging the line, without any positional awareness and laziness while pressing back where he runs a bit faster then busi himself, messes up half of the decent passes that should have been a decent link-up play, ball control in the mould of lukaku at best(im generous) , and messi couldnt be useful?

Oh common.

You can be the best player in the world individually and still doesnt fit into a system.

 

[DonAK]

you guys went crazy yesterday when ppl mentioned barca would be weaker with Messi but maybe i have just dreamed that

And that is relevant to my point because.....?

That's like me saying: Oh look Fati_Future_BallonDor is not even a Barcelona fan because he said he was a Juventus fan at a Juve forum and a Utd fan at a Man Utd forum. Not to forget the multiple accounts he made at Barcaforum where he was stanning Cristiano Ronaldo and talking trash about Barca.

Is it relevant to the point I made or the discussion about Barca from 2017 to 2020? Nope.

 

[Porque]

Yesterday's lineup with Ronald Araujo at RB is probably the best lineup we can create while accomodating Messi.

Messi where Dembele was. If Busquets, Pique and Alba have stepped up a level with Xavi then Messi would too I am sure.

We would play a little different obviously, but I don't doubt his quality despite his age and how it is going at PSG

 

[malvolio]

you guys went crazy yesterday when ppl mentioned barca would be weaker with Messi but maybe i have just dreamed that

Because it's only based on assumptions and not actual facts. And just meant to stir shit up in here, like usual.

You can be the best player in the world individually and still doesnt fit into a system.

When did that ever happen?

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

I see some guys are still furious barca won without messi

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

When did that ever happen?

messi 2016, barca played their best football when messi was injured but individually he was the best

 

[malvolio]

messi 2016, barca played their best football when messi was injured but individually he was the best

another troll attempt or plain dumb take.

so he didn't fit the system(while being best in the world) because he was injured at the time and team did well without him?

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

another troll attempt or plain dumb take.

so he didn't fit the system(while being best in the world) because he was injured at the time and team did well without him?

Malvi dude, team played best football of the season without him not only did well. Why didnt it work like in 14 15? Because Messi didnt want to play RW but more central. Barca needed a RW in that season.

 

[suckabov]

there is overwhelming evidence that teams with messi (barca and psg) collapse to RM while teams without (barca) can actually get a W

you are literally arguing against objective facts. its actually astounding how far you are willing to go to deny truths visible to anyone with a shred of objectivity

what more evidence do you need after messi is like 9-0 in consectuive matches against real? seriously, what sort of evidence would move you to accept the truth?

at this point its like arguing with a flat earther

Correlation vs causation. A logical fallacy.

By the same logic: Teams who don't have Xavi (PSG, pre-Xavi Bar?a) collapse to RM, whereas Xavi teams get a W. And this one actually has more merit as the impact on team performance by a manager is generally higher than that of an individual player. Or if you disagree and actually want to prove the more extraordinary claim that t was Messi and mainly Messi that got us to lose to RM, and PSG to lose to RM, then provide your extraordinary evidence.

I know you are trolling at this point, but I enjoy being trolled if the troll is well done. This one is silly and you can do better.

 

[Messigician]

I actually think Xavi would improve Messi

But PSG probably ruined him so might be too late

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Correlation vs causation. A logical fallacy.

By the same logic: Teams who don't have Xavi (PSG, pre-Xavi Bar?a) collapse to RM, whereas Xavi teams get a W. And this one actually has more merit as the impact on team performance by a manager is generally higher than that of an individual player. Or if you disagree and actually want to prove the more extraordinary claim that t was Messi and mainly Messi that got us to lose to RM, and PSG to lose to RM, then provide your extraordinary evidence.

I know you are trolling at this point, but I enjoy being trolled if the troll is well done. This one is silly and you can do better.

according to your logic we are never able to draw conclusions, everything can be just correlation. messi was never the problem but one problem as he slowed down many attacks with demanding the ball while walking instead of running into free space. Ofc Messi would surely do better with current team than the barca team of last 2-3 years but still he wouldnt make us stronger.

 

[suckabov]

I agree that the superior system has a lot to do with these performances. However, the catch is that it hasn’t been possible to play that system with Messi for the last five or so years.

But did we not have that system because of Messi, or because other, more crucial factors weren't there - the right manager wirh the right idea, style of play, motivational ability, discipline? Because we didn't have that, how can we be sure Messi wouldn't have worked in such a system even in later years? The fact that players are performing better now that we had already written off could be a suggestion. Point is though, we had shitty circumstances to start with and Messi wasn't the main factor in why we didn't improve on those. It's not like he held Setien or Koemam back despite their amazing plans. (I'm not talking about this season, BTW. I personally have not decided whether he's finished yet or not, and it doesn't matter to Barca right now, even though I agree that Messi with his current or even post 2019 work rate and off the ball game-involvement isn't an ideal player for a system like Xavi's, Pep's or Klopp's.)

according to your logic we are never able to draw conclusions, everything can be just correlation. messi was never the problem but one problem as he slowed down many attacks with demanding the ball while walking instead of running into free space. Ofc Messi would surely do better with current team than the barca team of last 2-3 years but still he wouldnt make us stronger.

And there's nothing wrong with your theory here. Makes perfect sense. But the particular sentence I quoted (overwhelming evidence that teams with Messi lose and teams without him win, earlier Messi was the main/only issue in why we lost) is silly because it identifies him as the only factor when virtually all other factors aren't comparable and the way of argumentation in itself is faulty.