Luis Enrique

gasgas

Senior Member
False 9 Barca was at it's most fluid state, in the prime of Pep's system. We didn't play false 9 with Messi, Henry, and Eto'o, did we? When the system was more classical and less fluid (at least in the final third).

We can't even cope with Messi vacating his RW spot that often, because we don't play a fluid system, but a more rigid one. Messi moving from the RW for center action doesn't trigger any reaction from Roberto and Suarez except in extremely rare cases. They stick to their zones as if Messi would be in the right, except he isn't, which leaves a massive hole there (check that article about Messi not having a position). It's like a rigid system where one player has a special power where he can move around, but without anyone actually picking up his movement and actually posing a threat in the spaces Messi leaves open.

Keep in mind that the false 9 Messi was also Messi at his physical prime probably. And that even Pep wanted to have a clear striker in front of Messi, hence the Ibra transfer.
but the Ibra transfer was made after 2008/9 season ended, and we had not yet played false 9.

Why would Pep want Ibra infront of Messi while Messi was still playing at RW???


And how are these points you put forward in view of this discussion going on right here. What are you suggesting?
 

serghei

Senior Member
but the Ibra transfer was made after 2008/9 season ended, and we had not yet played false 9.

Why would Pep want Ibra infront of Messi while Messi was still playing at RW???


And how are these points you put forward in view of this discussion going on right here. What are you suggesting?


Messi plays RW but drifts in the center often, that is why he is helped by the presence of a strong striker who could draw markings on him and allow Messi to attack the opponent's backline frontally, comming from the 2nd line. Suarez, Eto'o, Ibrahimovic those guys needed to be double marked, which meant more room for Messi.

What I'm suggesting is simple. Messi can't play false 9 now, because he is older, does not have Xavi and Iniesta duo to combine with in short spaces in midfield (which is the reason why he played false 9 in the first place, to combine with Xavi and Iniesta in attacking midfield areas), and the team doesn't have a plan, or the players (or both) to fill in the space left by Messi in the right, and pose a serious threat on that side once Messi is gone from there.

Suarez is a clear no9, not a winger. So Messi can only play RW in a 4-3-3 system. And playing with false 9 is not a tactical setup that you only use when Suarez is not available, since it changes a lot of things in how the team is supposed to play from midfield up.

The question is how do we play Messi in RW, and more specifically, who do we have there to attack the space Messi leaves when he goes more centrally? Nobody who could trouble a good team, which is why Marcelo had absolutely no problems in defence in the clasico even though he is mediocre at best at defending. Let's be honest here, nobody is worried by Sergi Roberto. He is not even half the attacking threat that Alves was. Which is why we probably want to sign Cancelo.
 
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gasgas

Senior Member
Messi plays RW but drifts in the center often, that is why he is helped by the presence of a strong striker who could draw markings on him and allow Messi to attack the opponent's backline frontally, comming from the 2nd line. Suarez, Eto'o, Ibrahimovic those guys needed to be double marked, which meant more room for Messi.

What I'm suggesting is simple. Messi can't play false 9 now, because he is older, does not have Xavi and Iniesta duo to combine with in short spaces in midfield (which is the reason why he played false 9 in the first place, to combine with Xavi and Iniesta in attacking midfield areas), and the team doesn't have a plan, or the players (or both) to fill in the space left by Messi in the right, and pose a serious threat on that side once Messi is gone from there.

Suarez is a clear no9, not a winger. So Messi can only play RW in a 4-3-3 system. And playing with false 9 is not a tactical setup that you only use when Suarez is not available, since it changes a lot of things in how the team is supposed to play from midfield up.

The question is how do we play Messi in RW, and more specifically, who do we have there to attack the space Messi leaves when he goes more centrally? Nobody who could trouble a good team, which is why Marcelo had absolutely no problems in defence in the clasico even though he is mediocre at best at defending. Let's be honest here, nobody is worried by Sergi Roberto. He is not even half the attacking threat that Alves was. Which is why we probably want to sign Cancelo.

But that would mean even more defensive work for Rakitic,
Since on his side there is Messi who doesn't like to stay centrally and there is Cancelo who is shabby defensively and will stay forward most of the time to cover the gap left by messi


I wouldn't like to be in his position,
 

serghei

Senior Member
But that would mean even more defensive work for Rakitic,
Since on his side there is Messi who doesn't like to stay centrally and there is Cancelo who is shabby defensively and will stay forward most of the time to cover the gap left by messi


I wouldn't like to be in his position,

We do more attacking than defending though. So it is normal to have players who are more potent attacking than defending since our style is proactive, and attack oriented first and foremost. And it's not like Cancelo can't defend AT ALL. Imo, Roberto can't defend that well either. He is more like a neutral option, not great defending, not great attacking but fairly decent at both. If Messi would've been a classic RW who would stay on his side 90% of the time, we wouldn't need an attack-minded RB. But him vacating his spot in RW that often, means we need a RB who can actually play RW a lot. That means someone with speed, link-up abilities, good crossing, solid in 1 vs 1 and capable to constantly put defenders on the back foot.
 
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Messi983

Senior Member
If Lucho stays our coach and we really buy Cancelo then I wonder if he'll use him as RW in some games with Roberto/Srna as more defensive minded RBs.

Let's say something like this.

MATS
SR-Pique-Umtiti-Alba
Busquets-Rakitić/Gomes/Iniesta
Cancelo-Messi-Neymar
Suarez

Play that in El Clasico and let Cancelo occupy Marcelo defensively so he wouldn't have as much time attacking us while we'd still have cover defensively (I think Roberto would do a good job there if he'd need to stay focused only on defending with occasional attacking play here and there) and Messi playing as AMC (where he usually moves in the game even if he starts as RW anyway) to help creating/keeping possesion and his lack of defensive work also wouldn't be as exposed there as is on the wings, especially against attacking LBs like Marcelo. Of course if our plan is to move Messi to AMC longterm we could just buy a true RW but I don't see that happening soon.

Another option is 3-4-3 (3-4-1-2) formation Lucho already tried this season.

-----------------MATS--------------
-------Masche-Pique-Umtiti----------
Cancelo-Busquets-Rakitić/Iniesta-Alba
---------------Messi------------
---------Suarez------Neymar----

It could work against some teams but most likely not longterm because of our overload of midfielders and we'd also need to have at least two more reliable rotational CBs in that case. One could be Marlon but he's still inexperienced at high level.
 

gasgas

Senior Member
If Lucho stays our coach and we really buy Cancelo then I wonder if he'll use him as RW in some games with Roberto/Srna as more defensive minded RBs.

Let's say something like this.

MATS
SR-Pique-Umtiti-Alba
Busquets-Rakitić/Gomes/Iniesta
Cancelo-Messi-Neymar
Suarez

Play that in El Clasico and let Cancelo occupy Marcelo defensively so he wouldn't have as much time attacking us while we'd still have cover defensively (I think Roberto would do a good job there if he'd need to stay focused only on defending with occasional attacking play here and there) and Messi playing as AMC (where he usually moves in the game even if he starts as RW anyway) to help creating/keeping possesion and his lack of defensive work also wouldn't be as exposed there as is on the wings, especially against attacking LBs like Marcelo. Of course if our plan is to move Messi to AMC longterm we could just buy a true RW but I don't see that happening soon.

Another option is 3-4-3 (3-4-1-2) formation Lucho already tried this season.

-----------------MATS--------------
-------Masche-Pique-Umtiti----------
Cancelo-Busquets-Rakitić/Iniesta-Alba
---------------Messi------------
---------Suarez------Neymar----

It could work against some teams but most likely not longterm because of our overload of midfielders and we'd also need to have at least two more reliable rotational CBs in that case. One could be Marlon but he's still inexperienced at high level.

I kinda prefer your first plan


More like


I think this plan/formation is perfect everyone gains except Rakitic who i don't care so much for these days whatsoever

\
.................................Ter Stegen.......................................
Sergi Roberto....Pique...........................Umtiti.........Alba
.................................Busquets..........................................
Cancelo............Messi...................Iniesta..............Neymar....
.................................Suarez.............................................

Subs:
Arda (Neymar)
Gomes (Iniesta, Busquets)
Denis (Cancelo) just like how he played for Villareal
Rafinha (Messi, Cancelo)
And Paco is shipped back to Valencia or joins Douglas at Gijon
 
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F

FlaFCB

Guest
If Lucho stays our coach and we really buy Cancelo then I wonder if he'll use him as RW in some games with Roberto/Srna as more defensive minded RBs.

Let's say something like this.

MATS
SR-Pique-Umtiti-Alba
Busquets-Rakitić/Gomes/Iniesta
Cancelo-Messi-Neymar
Suarez

Play that in El Clasico and let Cancelo occupy Marcelo defensively so he wouldn't have as much time attacking us while we'd still have cover defensively (I think Roberto would do a good job there if he'd need to stay focused only on defending with occasional attacking play here and there) and Messi playing as AMC (where he usually moves in the game even if he starts as RW anyway) to help creating/keeping possesion and his lack of defensive work also wouldn't be as exposed there as is on the wings, especially against attacking LBs like Marcelo. Of course if our plan is to move Messi to AMC longterm we could just buy a true RW but I don't see that happening soon.

Another option is 3-4-3 (3-4-1-2) formation Lucho already tried this season.

-----------------MATS--------------
-------Masche-Pique-Umtiti----------
Cancelo-Busquets-Rakitić/Iniesta-Alba
---------------Messi------------
---------Suarez------Neymar----

It could work against some teams but most likely not longterm because of our overload of midfielders and we'd also need to have at least two more reliable rotational CBs in that case. One could be Marlon but he's still inexperienced at high level.

Licho is not very flexible tactically. He could already try that using Vidal as rw, but he won't. He already abandoned the 3-4-3. Most he'll do is put the midfielders wide and upfront, leaving Busi alone and overloaded.
 

serghei

Senior Member
We will continue to play 4-3-3 with Cancelo. The difference is that when Messi moves from RW to the center, which happens way more often than it should btw, Cancelo will push up and effectly serve as a RW threat the time Messi moves centrally.

Alves' role in the team can't be supported by anyone, and the coaching staff hopes Cancelo can do it. The thing is that with Xavi and Alves, we have lost two of the main playmakers that this team had during Pep. And the roles they had in the team can't be replicated by anyone else, sadly.
 
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F

FlaFCB

Guest
We will continue to play 4-3-3 with Cancelo. The difference is that when Messi moves from RW to the center, which happens way more often than it should btw, Cancelo will push up and effectly serve as a RW threat the time Messi moves centrally.

Alves' role in the team can't be supported by anyone, and the coaching staff hopes Cancelo can do it. The thing is that with Xavi and Alves, we have lost two of the main playmakers that this team had during Pep. And the roles they had in the team can't be replicated by anyone else, sadly.

And the normal solution should be an alternative to that, not keep trying to replicate it by buying players. Vidal, in theory, could do what Alves did. Cancelo will be that all over again. I think we really need a new coach with new ideas. But with Unzue looking to be the next coach, I'm not very hopeful.
 

gasgas

Senior Member
We will continue to play 4-3-3 with Cancelo. The difference is that when Messi moves from RW to the center, which happens way more often than it should btw, Cancelo will push up and effectly serve as a RW threat the time Messi moves centrally.

Alves' role in the team can't be supported by anyone, and the coaching staff hopes Cancelo can do it. The thing is that with Xavi and Alves, we have lost two of the main playmakers that this team had during Pep. And the roles they had in the team can't be replicated by anyone else, sadly.
We don't need an Alves' role, we need BALANCE.

Cancelo is 10,000 times worse defensively compared to Alves. You can't replicate Alves role with a player who is widely known to be unable to defend. Alves was an excelent defender apart from being worldclass in attacking

I also hope you noticed that our Right side of defence is the most vulnerable side defensively. the solution to that is not replacing the defensively-offensively balanced Roberto with an attack minded Cancelo and a centralized Messi. That is creating an even bigger problem.

That system you are suggesting has been used before by Pep BTW in the 2011/12 season Vs Valencia. Alves was pushed as a winger with no defensive duties, what happened? It pulled the team out of balance and Valencia tormented our right side and created all their chances from there. Next time it will be Marcelo doing that


All i am saying is teams these days base on balance and not trying to replicate past formations because they don't work
That is essentially taking the problem from bad to terribad

And the normal solution should be an alternative to that, not keep trying to replicate it by buying players. Vidal, in theory, could do what Alves did. Cancelo will be that all over again. I think we really need a new coach with new ideas. But with Unzue looking to be the next coach, I'm not very hopeful.

Alves could defend
Vidal though ........
 
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gasgas

Senior Member
And Cancelo can? He's pretty much weak there as well, need a lot of work.

He's a bad defender

He can't handle the wing alone esp vs the likes of Marcelo, Douglas Costa, hazard, de bruyne


there's a formation i suggested a few posts above 4-1-4-1

A Formation that i think will get the best out of everyone
 
F

FlaFCB

Guest
He's a bad defender

He can't handle the wing alone esp vs the likes of Marcelo, Douglas Costa, hazard, de bruyne


there's a formation i suggested a few posts above 4-1-4-1

A Formation that i think will get the best out of everyone

Vidal could do that just as well. Licho won't try that formation anyway. If he stays, and brings Cancelo, it'll be to play RB.
 

gasgas

Senior Member
Vidal could do that just as well. Licho won't try that formation anyway. If he stays, and brings Cancelo, it'll be to play RB.

then we are screwed
Putting a defensive joke such as Cancelo as the lone man on the wing vs the likes of Marcelo, Nolito, Debruyne, Carrasco, Hazard, Douglas Costa is SUICIDE


Why are we run by such tactical naiveity?? SMH :cry:
RIP barca's right defense :cry:
 

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