Maradona or Messi

[La Furia]

Why are some people obsessed by trying to say Maradona played in a poor Napoli side that were relegation candidates?

It just isnt true, Napoli were one of the biggest spenders in Italy in the mid to late 80's. Look at the players they brought in after Maradona signed -

Careca - Arguably the best Brazilian striker of the 80's. Signed for Napoli on the back of scoring 5 at the 1986 World Cup. Was also top scorer in Brazil and named South American player of the year.
Alemao - Signed from Atletico Madrid where he was named the best foreign player in Spain, having previously been voted the best player in South America. Was part of the 1986 Brazil World Cup squad.
Ferrara - one of the best defenders of his generation in Italy, over 40 odd caps for Italy and went on to win many trophies as the main man in the Juventus defence.
Di Napoli - Over 50 caps for Italy and went on to play for AC Milan in the early 90's. Played in 1986 WC. 1988 euros, 1990 WC.
Bagni - Over 40 caps for Italy and was part of the 1986 WC squad.
Crippa - 17 caps for Italy
Francini - Italian intl who was in the Italy squad for 1988 euros.
Carnevale - striker played for Italy at the 1990 WC
Fusi - Italian intl who was in the 1988 euros squad
Zola - Younger years at Napoli where he won his first cap.

The squad that Napoli had was second only to Milan in terms of players. Almost all those named above were brought in after Napoli started spending big and brought in Maradona. Its a tired line to say Maradona joined a relegation threatened Napoli and turned them into champions. It just isnt true. He was the best player in a strong squad.

Except I never said Napoli was poor without him. I acknowledged that Napoli was a very good team around him; one player could not carry a Serie A club in the 80s and 90s. I'm saying in what was an utterly stacked Serie A, Maradona is the reason Napoli stood out. Napoli was more dependant on him than Inter, Milan and Juve were on their best players. Even Sampdoria whose best attacking player was clearly Mancini, needed Vialli as much as Mancini.

Look at it this way, Zola broke out in 1990-91, the year Maradona turned into a sideshow, and the following year with Zola ready to be an every game player and Careca still at his best, and with Sampdoria and Inter both imploding, the most Napoli were able to do was finish in 4th.

Who knows if Messi will end up better than Maradona, but some of the arguments put forward for Maradona ie 'carrying poor teams to titles' simply isnt true.

This straw man argument doesn't change the fact that teams revolved around Maradona more so than they did Messi.

 

[Beast]

Why are some people obsessed by trying to say Maradona played in a poor Napoli side that were relegation candidates?

It just isnt true, Napoli were one of the biggest spenders in Italy in the mid to late 80's. Look at the players they brought in after Maradona signed -

Careca - Arguably the best Brazilian striker of the 80's. Signed for Napoli on the back of scoring 5 at the 1986 World Cup. Was also top scorer in Brazil and named South American player of the year.
Alemao - Signed from Atletico Madrid where he was named the best foreign player in Spain, having previously been voted the best player in South America. Was part of the 1986 Brazil World Cup squad.
Ferrara - one of the best defenders of his generation in Italy, over 40 odd caps for Italy and went on to win many trophies as the main man in the Juventus defence.
Di Napoli - Over 50 caps for Italy and went on to play for AC Milan in the early 90's. Played in 1986 WC. 1988 euros, 1990 WC.
Bagni - Over 40 caps for Italy and was part of the 1986 WC squad.
Crippa - 17 caps for Italy
Francini - Italian intl who was in the Italy squad for 1988 euros.
Carnevale - striker played for Italy at the 1990 WC
Fusi - Italian intl who was in the 1988 euros squad
Zola - Younger years at Napoli where he won his first cap.

The squad that Napoli had was second only to Milan in terms of players. Almost all those named above were brought in after Napoli started spending big and brought in Maradona. Its a tired line to say Maradona joined a relegation threatened Napoli and turned them into champions. It just isnt true. He was the best player in a strong squad.

Either you were sleeping or you are joking ..
U do know that even players like Alemao joined Napoli after they won the double not before ... RIGHT?
those players were not even stars compared to the squads Inter-Juve-Milan had...they were not even close to the current squad Barca had
Ferrara was kid.. he improved but when Maradona joined them he was 18'ish....rest of the names is not even worth mentioning apart from Careca
in comparison to today teams maybe Villarreal.. but strong squad ???! come again Wiki synopsis ain't enough to change history my age allowed me to witness

 

[Beast]

Had Messi been a madrid player, i'd like to know how many here would still be arguing he's better than Maradona already.

Didn't even work with Zizou or Ronaldo.. so no Zanela.. Maradona is Maradona

 

[zanela]

My post was directed at Barca fans, you know.

 

[La Furia]

Either you were sleeping or you are joking ..
U do know that even players like Alemao joined Napoli after they won the double not before ... RIGHT?
those players were not even stars compared to the squads Inter-Juve-Milan had...they were not even close to the current squad Barca had
Ferrara was kid.. he improved but when Maradona joined them he was 18'ish....rest of the names is not even worth mentioning apart from Careca
in comparison to today teams maybe Villarreal.. but strong squad ???! come again Wiki synopsis ain't enough to change history my age allowed me to witness

The funny thing is all you have to do is read Wikipedia to shut him down, outside of Careca and Bagni, none of these others were in their prime.

That was a good team even without Maradona, no doubt. But compared to Juve/Milan/Inter, or even Sampdoria, the only thing they had going for them was Maradona. Without him that team wasn't any better than Roma, Fiorentina, Atalanta, etc. Serie A was ridiculous in the 80s.

 

[JamDav1982]

The funny thing is all you have to do is read Wikipedia to shut him down, outside of Careca and Bagni, none of these others were in their prime.

Ferrara was 20 and had been a first team player for almost three years by the time they won the league, Almao was 25 and had already been named the best foreign player in Spain and best player in South America. As for the rest of the players names all but Zola were in their prime.

The argument that Serie a was the all powerfull european league in the mid 80's is a joke. If you go by the Uefa coefficients it was the 5th strongest in europe behind Scotland when Maradona joined and in that first season Hells Verona won the league title.

 

[La Furia]

Ferrara was 20 and had been a first team player for almost three years by the time they won the league, Almao was 25 and had already been named the best foreign player in Spain and best player in South America. As for the rest of the players names all but Zola were in their prime.

The argument that Serie a was the all powerfull european league in the mid 80's is a joke. If you go by the Uefa coefficients it was the 5th strongest in europe behind Scotland when Maradona joined and in that first season Hells Verona won the league title.

Going by UEFA Coefficients

Besides Milan, Italian sides have typically been more focused on their own league. It's still a problem even today, when Serie A's coefficient is killed by the refusal of Italian clubs to take the Europa League seriously. Serie A was undisputedly the first choice for South Americans back then. Just look at the biggest names of the 82, 86, 90 World Cups and more often than not you will find players who played in Serie A for at least part of their prime.

 

[JamDav1982]

Why are you focusing on the Europa League?

Of the three teams that won serie a in the mid 1980's when Maradona first arrived none got past the second round of the European Cup.

What relevance is it that South Americans moved to Serie A? The players that made Serie a the strongest in the world were the dutch and the Germans at AC and Inter none of whom moved there until the late 1980's and early 1990's.

The players of the mid 80's played in Italy did they? How many of the players that played in the latter stages of the WC 1986 played in Italy?

Maradona was part of a very strong Napoli side that a lot of money was spent on. He was their best player clearly but far from a one man team as some people dream of.

 

[Aryagorn]

Either you were sleeping or you are joking ..
U do know that even players like Alemao joined Napoli after they won the double not before ... RIGHT?
those players were not even stars compared to the squads Inter-Juve-Milan had...they were not even close to the current squad Barca had
Ferrara was kid.. he improved but when Maradona joined them he was 18'ish....rest of the names is not even worth mentioning apart from Careca
in comparison to today teams maybe Villarreal.. but strong squad ???! come again Wiki synopsis ain't enough to change history my age allowed me to witness

Villarreal + injury-free Messi would sweep most of the leagues

 

[La Furia]

Why are you focusing on the Europa League?

Of the three teams that won serie a in the mid 1980's when Maradona first arrived none got past the second round of the European Cup.

What relevance is it that South Americans moved to Serie A? The players that made Serie a the strongest in the world were the dutch and the Germans at AC and Inter none of whom moved there until the late 1980's and early 1990's.

The players of the mid 80's played in Italy did they? How many of the players that played in the latter stages of the WC 1986 played in Italy?

Maradona was part of a very strong Napoli side that a lot of money was spent on. He was their best player clearly but far from a one man team as some people dream of.

The EL point was that Italian clubs tend to care more about national play than European tournaments. This has changed a bit because of Milan and because the revenue for the CL has exploded. This wasn't the case in the 80s.

It wasn't just South Americans, it was also Scandinavians and as you said Dutch and Germans.

The Dutch and Germans started impacting Serie A in the late 80s...You mean..the same time Maradona's Napoli won 2 scudettos? The league peaked in the late 80s and early 90s..guess when Maradona also played for Napoli? And even the few years before that...does the name Platini mean anything to you?

 

[JamDav1982]

The EL point was that Italian clubs tend to care more about national play than European tournaments. This has changed a bit because of Milan and because the revenue for the CL has exploded. This wasn't the case in the 80s.

It wasn't just South Americans, it was also Scandinavians and as you said Dutch and Germans.

The Dutch and Germans started impacting Serie A in the late 80s...You mean..the same time Maradona's Napoli won 2 scudettos? The league peaked in the late 80s and early 90s..guess when Maradona also played for Napoli?

Maradona won his first league before Serie a became very strong towards the late 80's none of the dutch were at Milan and none of the germans were at Inter.

The Italians didnt care about 'european play'? Dont just make things up. They cared as much as anyone else. If they dint care why did many of these teams basically sacrifice domestic challenges to succeed in europe? All the teams from Italy that went far in europe played their strongest teams to the detriment of their league form.

Maradona was largely gone by the early 90's and was barely active in this period of Italian football.

Name to me which team had a stronger squad than Napoli when they won the league in 1987?

 

[La Furia]

In 1987 Juventus was on the decline but still strong (Platini and Laudrup were at opposite ends of their careers, but were still as good as any non-Maradona player on Napoli), while Milan and Inter were on the rise. For Milan, Barsei was hitting his prime. Inter started their foreign core with Rummenigge and to a lesser extent Passarella.

You accuse me of making things up, yet the only example of an Italian club sacrificing domestic form for Europe before the 90s was Milan. You are once again treating the 80s European Cup like it's the 90s Champions League, which is not the case.

In 87, Napoli did not yet have Careca, Maradona's supporting cast was pretty much Carnevale and Bagni. Take away Maradona and that team is lucky to finish in the first half of the table. Replace Maradona with say, Zola, I don't see that team finishing ahead of Fiorentina at the very least.

 

[JamDav1982]

In 1987 Juventus was on the decline but still strong (Platini and Laudrup were at opposite ends of their careers, but were still as good as any non-Maradona player on Napoli), while Milan and Inter were on the rise. For Milan, Barsei was hitting his prime. Inter started their foreign core with Rummenigge and to a lesser extent Passarella.

You accuse me of making things up, yet the only example of an Italian club sacrificing domestic form for Europe before the 90s was Milan. You are once again treating the 80s European Cup like it's the 90s Champions League, which is not the case.

In 87, Napoli did not yet have Careca, Maradona's supporting cast was pretty much Carnevale and Bagni. Take away Maradona and that team is lucky to finish in the first half of the table. Replace Maradona with say, Zola, I don't see that team finishing ahead of Fiorentina at the very least.

You are totally and utterly making it up that Italian teams didnt care about European competition in the 1980's to try and suit your argument.

If thats the case why in the late 80's early 90's when the league got stronger did they start dominating european competition?

The front three for Napoli that season would have been Maradona, Carnavale and Giordano - all three of whom were international players. In midfield were Bagni and Di Napoli who both went to WC 1986 and got 90 odd Italian caps between them. In defence were a young Ferrara.

You name the Juventus squad of 1987 and point out Laudrup and Platini - Platini was well past his best and retired after that season after scoring 5 goals.

Its all very well saying without Maradona they would have been a poorer side as it is 100% true but it is also true of any other top side that they would miss their best player.

The Italian league in 1987 was not anywhere near as it would become.

You seem to think this is the Napoli team that won the title in amongst the strong Inter and AC teams.

 

[AnfieldEd]

Had Messi been a madrid player, i'd like to know how many here would still be arguing he's better than Maradona already.

Oh please...it is the barca supporters rather than the non barca supporters spinning the facts to suit their own arguments.

That Messi plays for Barca sways no difference for me as I've said already he is among the greatest of all time already, will probably end up in the top 5 of all time and even still has legit claims for the No.1 spot. Personally I don't think he has that spot.

That he plays for Barca does not alter that position in a positive or negative sense.

 

[estranged]

She's basically agreeing with you and Beast there man, she meant to say that if he was a Madrid player we (cules) would all rubbish the claims that he is the GOAT at the first given opportunity, which is true, but then 90% of Madridista would be saying he is the GOAT....so yea.....