Marco Verratti

[Zincubus]

So ..... Don't shoot the messenger ...

This is a transfer rumours forum after all BUT ....

According to Sport - Barca are going to offer 70 million Euros plus Rakitic to PSG for Verratti.

Now PSG's coach, Unai Emery, worked with Rakitic when they were at Sevilla together. back then Rakitic was the star and captain of the Europa League winning team so there could be something in this after all ???

 

[El Flaco]

 

[gasgas]

Not at all. I never said that.

Btw, I think playing CL finals is playing at the highest level. David Silva has played a lot of great matches for Spain. Even scored a goal in the Euro 2012 final, among others. Also playing at the highest level. Van Persie played a World Cup final as well. Griezmann played CL finals.

Good job putting in a lot of players who prove a point that playing at the highest level is necessary to be called world class with no restrictions.

I put those names to test your logic

By your logic, players who get in the UCL, Euro, Worldcup finals are the true worldclass players

So by using examples, this is how it reads

TRULLY WORLDCLASS: Eder, Mandzukic, Dante, Ramires, J.Martinez, David Luiz, Pogba, Khedira, Howedes, Rakitic,

NOT QUITE WORLDCLASS: Thiago, Hazard, Aguerro, Verratti, Falcao from ATM days, De Bruyne,

 

[gasgas]

Wellwe have seen him play in the UCL against the top teams Madrid, Barcelona, Arsenal, Chelsea and he was a class act in all affairs

I wonder how many Verratti fanboys have actually seen him play on regular bases? Hype is ridiculous for a player who plays in league majority of you don't follow. Just don't get it.
I have a few French league fans as friends and although all say he is quality player noone is placing him among top midfielders in the world.
He has his issues,injured quite a bit, does stupid things in important games and can dissapear. Also i do not think he is mentally too strong considering how he has handled himself in this saga.
Kroos has really no serious issues, he is perhaps not really that great defensively, but that is not his purpose anyways.

 

[serghei]

I put those names to test your logic

By your logic, players who get in the UCL, Euro, Worldcup finals are the true worldclass players

So by using examples, this is how it reads

TRULLY WORLDCLASS: Eder, Mandzukic, Dante, Ramires, J.Martinez, David Luiz, Pogba, Khedira, Howedes, Rakitic,

NOT QUITE WORLDCLASS: Thiago, Hazard, Aguerro, Verratti, Falcao from ATM days, De Bruyne,

You're incorrigible. I told you already that using arguments in the opposite directions doesn't work. If I say all mammals are animals, the reverse is of course not true (all animals are mammals). So, if I say all world class players need to play and be decisive at the highest level (meaning biggest leagues in the world, latter stages of big interclub competitions or latter stages of internations competitions like Euro, World Cup, Copa America etc.), it doesn't mean the reverse is true as well, meaning all the players that have played at the highest level are world class. It doesn't mean Eder for example is world class or Charisteas was world class.

World class is a subjective term anyway. I (and most others I think) care a lot for the players' achievements before calling them world class. Sure, there can be exceptions, but those are very rare and mostly from past eras when moving from one club to another wasn't as easy as now.

 

[DonAndres]

Ahh yes, the good old "he played in great teams, it wasn't him though". Basically any time there's a thread/conversation about a german midfielder, wether it's Kroos, Khedira, Schweinsteiger, Özil or any german player in general that gets compared to someone else then the general agreement is that he is actually not that great. With all the not-actually-that-greats I wonder who actually were the greats that carried them? We are a footballing nation of meh-okayish players that somehow won a fuckton of games and tournaments because the players on those other positions are equally not-actually-that-greatish and therefor a so-called "balance" exists, which is a magic blue blubble that floats around the pitch and scores goals. Without it, we'd probably be done in group stage.

I mean sure, whenever France, Spain, Italy or Brazil win the WC, then all of their team gets granted knighthood. But how ridiculous would it be if anyone suggested that 3-4 active german players might actually be as good as their titles suggest.

Why is this about Germans and how was I wrong? They have had the most balanced team in international football for some years now, and it's a mix of mostly good-great players (a good number of which are top 5 in their position). You seem to be making up these insults that you think were thrown at you about how every other team has players knighted and Germans are under-appreciated or that Kroos is underrated because he doesn't have blue hair or is Brazilian and dances, which is ridiculous to suggest considering how many people here actually dislike that and how the more simple and grounded players (Xavi, Messi, etc.) are more appreciated.

You want Kroos to get lauded for heroism in the team and to say that he didn't benefit from a really well balanced side overall? What about Neuer's Golden Glove, or Muller's 5 goals over the tournament, or Schweini's consistently industrial performances up until a MOTM game in the final? You claim that I'm under-selling Germans, yet I think you want to downplay everyone else to push this incorrect idea of Kroos being the driving force to victory. I'll take it a step further and say that the WC 2014 is maybe the ONLY major tournament in which Kroos was a top 3 player for his team. He was not indispensable for 12/13 Bayern whatsoever and his absence was a footnote to them. He is not a top 3 important player for this RM side either. What does it say for your claim that 'Kroos is on track to be a top 3-4 German player ever' when on an individual level he is not a top 3 player for most of his teams' successes and definitely not a top 5 midfielder of this century. If you include his legacy (trophy haul) then he's maybe a top 10 midfielder since 2000 but based on skill/ability alone he's not even that. You can't make near GOAT level claims for a player when it's not the case that he can do things that other players are incapable of or that he consistently performs at a level that others can't match.

When people make these kinds of claims for Xavi it's because he is THAT good on an individual level and there is proof of that. He's had Balon D'or worthy years if not for the alien that is Messi, breaking assist records and doing so in an incredible fashion. His impact on teams and how he ran the show is tangibly incredible. He's always had a decisive hand in the success of his teams (2 assists in 2 Euro finals, 2 assists in CL finals, 4 assists in the 2-6 Clasico, still holds La Liga assist record) and that he does it beautifully all while changing the ideal of midfield play and impacting teams. His presence was always the most clearly felt aside from Messi (and in some ways, much moreso than Leo). This is true for Modric as well on a lesser extent because he's less successful than Xavi but still has the same kind of impressive output where he runs the whole offense and is the main creative force. And, to an equally lesser extent than Modric this also applies to Thiago as he shows the same traits of being the creative driving force of his team and running the show. Verratti doesn't yet show that level of output but IMO he would if he played in a system like at Barca or RM even if he stays just as good as he is now and doesn't improve at all.

My original claim which I still stand by is that Kroos would not be able to replicate the level of success he's had if he were playing for PSG/Italy instead of RM/Bayern/Germany, but that he surely is top 5 in his position right now. I think he'd struggle a lot more as the 'main man' being tasked with a bulk of the creative and transitional burden than he is in his current role as an auxiliary distributor. He's near flawless at what he does, but what he does is not enough individually to take on a mantle like that. To say he could string together a win with '10 dead cats' is wildly off the mark IMO (and yes I understand the hyperbole) as he is not that heavy of a determinant on the success/failure of his teams.

 

[serghei]

I see Kroos as being as good as Modric. I think it's a matter of style when you compare these players, but the quality is roughly at the same level. I'd say both are pretty key figures for Madrid's team atm. Thiago's and even Verratti's names don't belong in this discussion imo. They just haven't done enough.

 

[Yannik]

[MENTION=12906]DonAndres[/MENTION] I disagree with a lot of these:
First of all: Kroos was Germanys best player in the EC2016, and has been consistently THE best player in that team for years now. Neuers heroics were one game and also a few good saves vs France, Müllers performed mainly in the group stage, and Schweinsteigers WC wasn't better than Kroos apart from the final.
I also don't get how you think they didn't notice his abscence in 2013. He was pretty much the best player alongside Ribery before his injury. And last but not leats he was definitely a top 3 player last year for Real Madrid. He was their best midfielder that year considering Modric had an off year till the semis and Isco played far less games than the starters. Yes, Kroos played in great teams, but why use that against him as if it's his fault now that his team mates are? There are tons of star crowded teams out there, teams that are way better individually than Germany, but they don't work that well because they lack someone like Kroos who strings it all together.

I don't understand what makes you think Kroos can't run the midfield at PSG or Italy, when he already does that at Bayern/Germany/Madrid/Leverkusen where he has also been the main creative force for many times. He is more than proven in that regard, claiming anything else is delusional. Anything about his game is brilliant, he plays a solid 8/10 in 290 of 300 matches without trying to be the hero. He simply makes everyone else play better, so it's easy to get the impression that they ARE actually better. As much as I love Thiago, Kroos is 2nd on his position on this planet, only behind Modric.

 

[Morten]

I see Kroos as being as good as Modric. I think it's a matter of style when you compare these players, but the quality is roughly at the same level. I'd say both are pretty key figures for Madrid's team atm. Thiago's and even Verratti's names don't belong in this discussion imo. They just haven't done enough.

Not quite, Kroos is ofc excellent but he doesnt dominate games like Modric(at his best) do. Modric is the closest thing i have seen to prime Iniesta, Kroos isnt quite there.

 

[DonAK]

Not quite, Kroos is ofc excellent but he doesnt dominate games like Modric(at his best) do. Modric is the closest thing i have seen to prime Iniesta, Kroos isnt quite there.

This is a Madrid fan.

 

[Wick]

Not quite, Kroos is ofc excellent but he doesnt dominate games like Modric(at his best) do. Modric is the closest thing i have seen to prime Iniesta, Kroos isnt quite there.

Modric is great, but he had not and will never reach the level of prime Inesta. I know you didn't say or even imply that, but I hear some Madrid fans who think Modric is at that level, which he isn't.

 

[Yannik]

I don't see any mid bar Modric that has shown to be better than Kroos in current era.

 

[DonAK]

No one is saying that Kroos is a scrub, you know @Yannik

Nor is anyone trying to downplay his achievements. If anything you're the one trying to make him look like a demigod among scrubs, and if you're talking about a midfielder better than Kroos in this era then I know about one who makes his team and national team play better with him and suffer without him, and been dominating at his position. Won more trophies and been more significant for his teams.

You want to know his name?


Sergio Busquets.

 

[serghei]

Busi Kroos Modric is the best midfield trio that is possible at the moment.

 

[DonAK]

Busi Kroos Modric is the best midfield trio that is possible at the moment.

Yeah. Could and should have had Kroos back in 2014.