Nelson Semedo

[JamDav1982]

There is massive difference between a 4-4-2 and a 4-3-3 and how the system is played not to mention the players needed.

I the 4-4-2 system 2 midfield wingers are used and your central midfielders are usually box to box players with 2 dedicated strikers. In the 4-3-3 system a single pivot is used around a compact midfield for passing options. You have 3 midfielders in the centre instead of 2. In attack you have 2 wingers or inside forwards with either a False 9 or full on number 9. The False 9 gives you an extra man in midfield at times.

The 2 are vastly different and are not interchangeable as you suggest. There is a big difference in playing 4-3-3 with a 4-4-2 defensive animation and playing 4-4-2 with a 4-3-3 offensive animation due to the type of players involved.

There isnt and Barca have not barely if at all played a proper 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 all season.

Barely been anything between the approaches despite how whoscored claims they set up

 

[Joan]

At the moment our player don't suit either formation solely.

There is massive difference between a 4-4-2 and a 4-3-3 and how the system is played not to mention the players needed.

I the 4-4-2 system 2 midfield wingers are used and your central midfielders are usually box to box players with 2 dedicated strikers. In the 4-3-3 system a single pivot is used around a compact midfield for passing options. You have 3 midfielders in the centre instead of 2. In attack you have 2 wingers or inside forwards with either a False 9 or full on number 9. The False 9 gives you an extra man in midfield at times.

The 2 are vastly different and are not interchangeable as you suggest. There is a big difference in playing 4-3-3 with a 4-4-2 defensive animation and playing 4-4-2 with a 4-3-3 offensive animation due to the type of players involved.

4-4-2: 2 midfieldwingers, 2 pivots, 2 dedicated strikers;
4-3-3: 1 pivot, 3 midfielders, 2 wingers or inside forwards.

Tam vs espanyol: Semedo, Pique, Umtiti, Alba; Deulofeu, Rakitić, Busquets, Iniesta; Messi, Suarez [4-4-2]

If we attack, Busquets a pivot, Iniesta, Busquets, Rakitić midfielders, Messi the false nine, Deulo winger and Suarez as inside forward. Your description of 4-3-3.

If we defend, Busquets and Rakitić pivots, Iniesta and Deulo midfieldwingers, Messi and Suarez as two dedicated strikers. Your description of 4-2-2.

Hence, the 2 are interchangable (in Barca's case) and we've put our best performances playting that way.

 

[MessiCam]

There isnt and Barca have not barely if at all played a proper 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 all season.

Barely been anything between the approaches despite how whoscored claims they set up

A proper flat 4-4-2 was played against Sporting, Las Palmas, Atléti and Bilbao. In some cases even forgoing playing recognised wide men for defensive stability. 4-3-3 with out and out wingers was played against Alaves, Eibar and Murcia. It was abandoned to the detriment of the teams performances to accommodate Suárez, Rakitic and Gomes when the wingers like Deulofeu & Denis have outperformed them hands down.

You can argue this as much as you like but I’ve given you the facts and you choose to ignore it. That’s not my problem.

 

[JamDav1982]

It wasnt a 4-4-2 vs Espanyol and Messi is never playing as a dedicated striker.

Going by whoscored stats could argue Messi is a more involved in all round games as all his assists have come in the '4-4-2'.

While this idea that Alba was running free in the 4-3-3 and got assists doesnt stand up as three of his four assists and also goal he shot for an og all came playing in the '4-4-2'.

The formation has been Alba taking almost all the width on the left, Suarez drifting over to the left slightly as a forward and Messi still playing as a false nine. On the right there has been more often a RW on the outside bar a couple games when Valverde seemed to want more power and height in team away to Atletico or Bilbao.

The teams approach is changing game to game depending on opponent but never been a strict 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3.

 

[JamDav1982]

A proper flat 4-4-2 was played against Sporting, Las Palmas, Atléti and Bilbao. In some cases even forgoing playing recognised wide men for defensive stability. 4-3-3 with out and out wingers was played against Alaves, Eibar and Murcia. It was abandoned to the detriment of the teams performances to accommodate Suárez, Rakitic and Gomes when the wingers like Deulofeu & Denis have outperformed them hands down.

You can argue this as much as you like but I’ve given you the facts and you choose to ignore it. That’s not my problem.

A 'flat 4-4-2' was not deployed in any of those games.

You have not given any facts.

 

[MessiCam]

At the moment our player don't suit either formation solely.



4-4-2: 2 midfieldwingers, 2 pivots, 2 dedicated strikers;
4-3-3: 1 pivot, 3 midfielders, 2 wingers or inside forwards.

Tam vs espanyol: Semedo, Pique, Umtiti, Alba; Deulofeu, Rakitić, Busquets, Iniesta; Messi, Suarez [4-4-2]

If we attack, Busquets a pivot, Iniesta, Busquets, Rakitić midfielders, Messi the false nine, Deulo winger and Suarez as inside forward. Your description of 4-3-3.

If we defend, Busquets and Rakitić pivots, Iniesta and Deulo midfieldwingers, Messi and Suarez as two dedicated strikers. Your description of 4-2-2.

Hence, the 2 are interchangable and we've put our best performances playting that way.

Now explain that with the Bilbao lineup, or the Atléti lineup and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Or explain a 4-3-3 formation with a 4-4-2 defensive animation.

The systems are not remotely the same.

 

[JamDav1982]

Now explain that with the Bilbao lineup, or the Atléti lineup and see how ridiculous it sounds.

Or explain a 4-3-3 formation with a 4-4-2 defensive animation.

The systems are not remotely the same.

Against Atletico away where Alba created the most chances and Roberto the RB set up the equaliser but you seem to make out that they were a flat back four?

Or Bilbao where Alba set up the first goal and Roberto was one of the more attacking players .... but that was a flat back four?

The systems are very similar the only difference in those games is that Valverde went with more width on the right through the full back rather than a RW and had Gomes playing inside him.

In other games he plays a RW on the outside and Semedo usually is there and plays more defensively.

 

[MessiCam]

A 'flat 4-4-2' was not deployed in any of those games.

You have not given any facts.

You’re just deliberately obtuse. I’ve shown you how the passing suffered, the possession loss, the goals and all you can come up with is 4-4-2 is not vastly different to a 4-3-3 when the fundamentals of each are vastly different.

Anyway, you continue to believe what you want.

 

[JamDav1982]

You’re just deliberately obtuse. I’ve shown you how the passing suffered, the possession loss, the goals and all you can come up with is 4-4-2 is not vastly different to a 4-3-3 when the fundamentals of each are vastly different.

Anyway, you continue to believe what you want.

The team has never played 4-3-3 bar maybe Juve but even then there was no LW and Alba took up all the width.

You make false claims about Alba getting assists before changed formation when he got those in what whoscored claims was '4-4-2' while claim Messi has suffered and played as some pure striker when he hasnt at all and actually had more assists in that '4-4-2' and scored a good amount of goals.

 

[MessiCam]

Against Atletico away where Alba created the most chances and Roberto the RB set up the equaliser but you seem to make out that they were a flat back four?

Or Bilbao where Alba set up the first goal and Roberto was one of the more attacking players .... but that was a flat back four?

The systems are very similar the only difference in those games is that Valverde went with more width on the right through the full back rather than a RW and had Gomes playing inside him.

In other games he plays a RW on the outside and Semedo usually is there and plays more defensively.

This is not rocket science man. You get 2 different 4-4-2 formations. The flat 4-4-2 which includes 2 wingers and 2 box to box midfielders. Then you get the 4-4-2 diamond formation which gives you a pivot, 2 box to box and an attacking midfieler vis a vis the enganche, the number 10.

Lol. You thought a flat 4-4-2 stays in straight line. Wahahahaha.

 

[MessiCam]

The team has never played 4-3-3 bar maybe Juve but even then there was no LW and Alba took up all the width.

You make false claims about Alba getting assists before changed formation when he got those in what whoscored claims was '4-4-2' while claim Messi has suffered and played as some pure striker when he hasnt at all and actually had more assists in that '4-4-2' and scored a good amount of goals.

My man. You need to sleep.

 

[JamDav1982]

This is not rocket science man. You get 2 different 4-4-2 formations. The flat 4-4-2 which includes 2 wingers and 2 box to box midfielders. Then you get the 4-4-2 diamond formation which gives you a pivot, 2 box to box and an attacking midfieler vis a vis the enganche, the number 10.

Lol. You thought a flat 4-4-2 stays in straight line. Wahahahaha.

Yes and none of the games you described Barca played with two wingers or a flat 4-4-2.

Not rocket science mate. Try watching a bit closer.

Who were the 'wingers' away to Atletico and Bilbao?

Just make up more lies like poor Alba and Messi in the '4-4-2' when in fact both have thrived in it.

 

[Joan]

Against Espanyol Valverde implemented the idea to defend in 4-4-2 and attack in 4-3-3. That's the game Gomes showed some improvements. Shouldn't have used dedicated striker for Messi, that's true.

To conclude, Suarez is useless played as a winger and it's crucial for us that he gains his form back. Also, this is a system to work on. I wouldn't mind Valverde playing Roberto and Denis as midfieldwingers neither I would mind resting Messi for Suarez in our standard 4-3-3. Valverde is new here and needs time to find optimal formation and his starting 11. What I complained about regarding him was starting Roberto as RB because it reveals our defensive vulnerabiliy.

 

[BBZ8800]

1. I never suggested that Denis and Roberto would become great players for us or are currently world class, I want them in the starting XI because they are better options right now than Suarez and Rakitic; do you not agree with that?

2. I never suggested that we played great football last year. I wasn't a big fan of Lucho's tactics that relied heavily on MSN and imploded once Messi decided to leave the right flank and the midfield declined. Lucho's tactics were flawed and so are Valverde's right now.

I see your point and that the team is still getting results, but for me the team has gone from one inept coach in Lucho to another in Valverde. It's only a matter of time before this tactical setup falls apart in terms of getting results, the signs are already there. Your post makes some sense, but you really misrepresented what I said, I was neither a big fan of Lucho's MSN reliant tactics, nor am I a blinded Masia puppet that wants to promote everyone and their mothers from the B team.

Just being realistic that's all.

Sorry if I was being too harsh.
It was not only about you.

But people are whining when we have 9-1-0 ratio while:
1. Barto is our president and ruined a club. And yet, we are winning points inspite of him and his decisions
2. our core of players (Iniesta, Pique, Masch, Alba, Rakitic, Suarez, Busquets) won way too many trophies. Majority of them are old, and mentally drained.
So, with a core of players without too much desire to give 100% ever again, we are still winning 9-1-0 of matches.
3. we don't have any La Masia talents for years
4. we lost Neymar, got Dembele and he got injured, long term. Our key target, Coutinho, didn't come.
On paper, realistically, our team is way weaker than any of our teams since 2009 till today. (Which team was weaker on paper than the current one, especially when you remove injured Dembele from maths?)

I expected that we will have some horrible season like in early 2000s when we were a 6th placed teams in some Months.
And then, Valverde has 9 wins in La liga from 10 matches, and 3 wins in a CL (even against Juventus).
With a total goalscore: 28:3 in La liga and 7:1 in a CL.
Total 35:4 in 13 matches.

Also, remember guys: Rijkaard had a slow start and he was almost sacked after 3-4 Months in his first season.
Then a team clicked in a spring of 2003/04, and came from 10th place to a 2nd place.
In the next season, he bought new players for his style of play, and we won 2 La Ligas in a row and a CL in 2006.

Lucho had a slow start and he was almost sacked in his first season.
Later his team clicked and he won 2 La Ligas and 1 CL also.

Even Cruijff finished 2nd and 3rd in his first 2 seasons here (ok, we were a crap before him, but still).

Lucho's and Rijkaard's Barca needed a few Months for "a click".
Ernesto already has awesome results, let's give him some time, maybe a team will start to play nicer also.

Also, remember, we are yet to use Dembele.
And who knows, what if we really get Coutinho soon?

Imagine this team (with a good results and awesome defensive record) with Dembele or with Dembele+Coutinho?

Imo, a huge part of our better defending are physically stronger players in midfield like Paulinho, Gomes, Rakitic.
On the other hand, they are also a reason why our game is not as fluid and nice as before.
But, you can't get both.
Again, imagine this defensive setup with Messi-Dembele-Coutinho-Suarez upfront.
We can't concede a goal and these guys would unlock any opponent's defense.

Maybe that was Ernesto's real plan?
But Liverpool and Dembele's injury ruined his plans?

 

[MessiCam]

Yes and none of the games you described Barca played with two wingers or a flat 4-4-2.

Not rocket science mate. Try watching a bit closer.

Who were the 'wingers' away to Atletico and Bilbao?

Just make up more lies like poor Alba and Messi in the '4-4-2' when in fact both have thrived in it.

Gomes and Rakitic played as wide men against Bilbao. You want me to show you where the average position of their touches were?

I can if you want but you’ve seemed to have made your mind up already so it would ultimately be pointless.

Who scored, Squawka etc all get their stats from Opta. Every professional team and even scouts use Opta for their analytics. Calling them liars because you want to believe something else is a stretch. I know who I’ll beileve.