Ousmane Dembélé

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serghei

serghei

Senior Member
BusiTheKing said:
should utilize his speed more like Vini. one-two and he's off. just put it behind the line and you know he's there. simple stuff but damn effective when you've got the speed.
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Unfortunately, Vini is a lot smarter player and his finishing is at another level now. More technical too.
 
BusiTheKing

BusiTheKing

Senior Member
mc_lovin said:
He's a shit receiver unlike Vinicius. Was glaringly obvious when Koeman used him as a "striker".
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yes, i agree -- especially when having to take down balls coming in the air. would still be somewhat of a threat. along side overlaps, a pretty simple and available weapon we for some reason just seem to ignore.
 
Birdy

Birdy

Senior Member
Temptation said:
A world class winger would be comfortable in that role needed for an LW/RW too.

Playing closer to the striker in tighter spaces is something most World Class wingers can pull off.

Angel Di Maria was comfortable dealing in those places. Vinicius has been excelling at that kinda role where he plays close to the strikers but also dribbles around the touchline areas.
Neymar would be more than comfortable doing that too.
As would Son.

Dembele still needs a lot of space to progress the ball and many times he fails when he tries to dribble too much. In the Bayern game he was struggling to beat a single man.

The bad games Dembele had at that inside forward role was because he's not a complete consistent world class player with lots of tools.

He needs space to dribble into.

What has generally improved is his final ball and crossing. But in order to be world class he needs to do better in tight spaces and find some consistency infront of the goal.
The worrying thing was how ineffective he was against Bayern where he was not in the game at all.

Despite Dembele's pace he can't get in behind defenses with clever off the ball movement. He always wants the ball to his feet.

And players who ask for the ball to their feet like Messi and Neymar are immense in tight spaces.

Dembele's skill set needs more polishing for him to find more consistency and adaptability.
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Time to reply to this.

Simply no!
The position of the inside forward is totally different from the position of the winger, and different skillset is needed

Salah and Mane, for instance, are WC wide/inside forwards but not WC at all wingers. They don't feel confortable playing on the touchline, and having to beat a man and then cross or pass to some one in the box to finish the move off.
On the contrary, they are happy to receive in or around the box and finish themselves the sequence after some flicks of their own.
Not an accident their proper position is in the half-space (left and right) leaving the flank for the fullbacks or for Henderson

That distinction is very crucial.
Some wingers can finish well, and some inside forwards can dribble decently, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not where they are the best and where they feel confortable

On all the names you mentioned:
Di Maria, Vinicius, young Neymar are/were wingers and not wide/inside forwards (current Neymar is more of an AM or number 10). Same is Sane and Coman for example.
Son is an inside forward. Same is Salah, Mane, Gnabry.
Young CR was a winger, from the time he started playing for RM he became an inside forward on the left. Maybe the only one I know who played both roles as well in his career.

Dembele is a winger, so is Raphinia. Ferran, Memphis and Ansu are wide/inside forwards. Abde is a winger.
See the difference? You can't simply efface it because some wingers finish better than others.
The off-the ball movement you ask is a skill that pertains not to wingers but inside forwards. You will never see Sane, Coman, young Neymar, Di Maria do that off the ball movement you ask, because they were wingers.

Now, I disagree about the root of his bad games at LW.
For instance, against Elche he was meh (given his best version always), but still played his position -> receiving the ball on the touchline, dribbling, passing, crossing, and generating chances.

On the contrary, when he starts as LW, he is never on the touchline, but in the HALFSPACe, the position where not a winger, but AN INSIDE FORWARD needs to be.
Because that's how Xavi's formation morphs with the different roles of RB and LB.
For instance, look at the formation in possession from the Elche game, and look where Memphis and Dembele are respectively:
FdClSD3aIAAkidR


Xavi has to do work here. He can't play with both Raphinia and Dembele in a 4-3-3 as one of them is wasted on the left. Until Ansu gets well to play the LW role, we need probably a different formation in possession.

PS: As for the tight spaces:
i) I don't think he is bad in tight spaces. IF you look how he beats his man, or 2-3 defenders that circulate him leaving no room, you can't say he is not good in those spaces
ii) It's irrelevant to the discussion. Reason is above and difference in positioning between an inside forward and a winger
 
T

Temptation

Well-known member
Birdy said:
Time to reply to this.

Simply no!
The position of the inside forward is totally different from the position of the winger, and different skillset is needed

Salah and Mane, for instance, are WC wide/inside forwards but not WC at all wingers. They don't feel confortable playing on the touchline, and having to beat a man and then cross or pass to some one in the box to finish the move off.
On the contrary, they are happy to receive in or around the box and finish themselves the sequence after some flicks of their own.
Not an accident their proper position is in the half-space (left and right) leaving the flank for the fullbacks or for Henderson

That distinction is very crucial.
Some wingers can finish well, and some inside forwards can dribble decently, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not where they are the best and where they feel confortable

On all the names you mentioned:
Di Maria, Vinicius, young Neymar are/were wingers and not wide/inside forwards (current Neymar is more of an AM or number 10). Same is Sane and Coman for example.
Son is an inside forward. Same is Salah, Mane, Gnabry.
Young CR was a winger, from the time he started playing for RM he became an inside forward on the left. Maybe the only one I know who played both roles as well in his career.

Dembele is a winger, so is Raphinia. Ferran, Memphis and Ansu are wide/inside forwards. Abde is a winger.
See the difference? You can't simply efface it because some wingers finish better than others.
The off-the ball movement you ask is a skill that pertains not to wingers but inside forwards. You will never see Sane, Coman, young Neymar, Di Maria do that off the ball movement you ask, because they were wingers.

Now, I disagree about the root of his bad games at LW.
For instance, against Elche he was meh (given his best version always), but still played his position -> receiving the ball on the touchline, dribbling, passing, crossing, and generating chances.

On the contrary, when he starts as LW, he is never on the touchline, but in the HALFSPACe, the position where not a winger, but AN INSIDE FORWARD needs to be.
Because that's how Xavi's formation morphs with the different roles of RB and LB.
For instance, look at the formation in possession from the Elche game, and look where Memphis and Dembele are respectively:
FdClSD3aIAAkidR


Xavi has to do work here. He can't play with both Raphinia and Dembele in a 4-3-3 as one of them is wasted on the left. Until Ansu gets well to play the LW role, we need probably a different formation in possession.

PS: As for the tight spaces:
i) I don't think he is bad in tight spaces. IF you look how he beats his man, or 2-3 defenders that circulate him leaving no room, you can't say he is not good in those spaces
ii) It's irrelevant to the discussion. Reason is above and difference in positioning between an inside forward and a winger
Click to expand...

Agree with a lot of what you wrote.

But in his physical peak Mane was a bonafide winger. His modus operandi wasn't like wide forwards like Son and Rashford. He liked the ball to feet a lot. Back in the day he even used to play as a RW.

As he got more mature and started losing his pace(he was still fast af) Klopp made him more of an inside forward. Ultimately transitioning into a CF in his final season with us.

In his peak, when he had his pace, he was pretty much a winger unlike a Salah.

Another point I made was Dembele lacking the movement and instincts to make runs in behind the defense using his pace which is fair.

In some cases, it's tough to differentiate between a winger and an inside forward in the modern game.

Like Arjen Robben who was a winger and an inside forward with his famous signature move. No one really refers to Robben as an inside forward overall.
Raphinha is the kinda player who'd have transitioned into an inside forward if he had the consistent goalscoring ability.
 
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Birdy

Birdy

Senior Member
Temptation said:
Agree with a lot of what you wrote.

But in his physical peak Mane was a bonafide winger. His modus operandi wasn't like wide forwards like Son and Rashford. He liked the ball to feet a lot. Back in the day he even used to play as a RW.

As he got more mature and started losing his pace(he was still fast af) Klopp made him more of an inside forward. Ultimately transitioning into a CF in his final season with us.

In his peak, when he had his pace, he was pretty much a winger unlike a Salah.

Another point I made was Dembele lacking the movement and instincts to make runs in behind the defense using his pace which is fair.

In some cases, it's tough to differentiate between a winger and an inside forward in the modern game.

Like Arjen Robben who was a winger and an inside forward with his famous signature move. No one really refers to Robben as an inside forward overall.
Raphinha is the kinda player who'd have transitioned into an inside forward if he had the consistent goalscoring ability.
Click to expand...

But you wrote yourself a very important differentiator of the two positions.
Makeing runs in behind the defense is a trair par excellence of an inside forward that wingers usually don't have.
Robben was a winger. He had good finishing, but always received out wide, ball to feet to create or shoot from outside the box, never run in behind unless in clear counters.
 
Birdy

Birdy

Senior Member
BTW:
[MENTION=21238]barca[/MENTION]Universal
?
5h
Demb?l?: "How I suddenly changed? The way I was working before was not good enough. If you don't do work, you will get injured. Koeman changed everything, he gave me health, that's the least of things."


ANOTHER CONFIMATION.
Don't know how many times the player needs to say it for some here to admit the big L
 
Messigician

Messigician

Senior Member
Birdy said:
BTW:
[MENTION=21238]barca[/MENTION]Universal
?
5h
Demb?l?: "How I suddenly changed? The way I was working before was not good enough. If you don't do work, you will get injured. Koeman changed everything, he gave me health, that's the least of things."


ANOTHER CONFIMATION.
Don't know how many times the player needs to say it for some here to admit the big L
Click to expand...

If you don't work you will get injured
 
Messigician

Messigician

Senior Member
Surprised how players themselves mix up their injury timelines. Koeman?s team was our most unfit, injury-prone by far.

He coached Bar?a from August 2020 to October 2021, during this period, Demb?l? was out for 158 days.
 
F

feggydinho

Senior Member
Messigician said:
Surprised how players themselves mix up their injury timelines. Koeman?s team was our most unfit, injury-prone by far.

He coached Bar?a from August 2020 to October 2021, during this period, Demb?l? was out for 158 days.
Click to expand...

Dembele's main injury with Koeman came when he was playing for France and he was fit for us for almost the whole season, which is why I just hope he won't get another injury with France this time
 
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