Real Madrid (old thread)

[Deco 20]

If you can't spot the difference between spending € 500 million within a few years and still going out to spend even more and signing Rivaldo for around € 20 million (his Valencia bicycle kick and hattrick that elevated us into the CL alone LITERALLY (CL money) was worth that), I can't help you. The issue here also isn't spending money on foreign players. Barcelona is a big club, one with the highest income. Naturally they will get some of the biggest names and spend big money. Even now, despite having the top 3 Ballon d'Or finalists from La Masia in the squad, money will be spent (Sanchez, Fabregas). This has NOTHING to do with the emphasis on own cantera players though. Real Madrid doesn't have this. Until today. Why develop players if you can splash big money at them (at the age of 29 or 19)? Mata was actually a Real Madrid youth product. Can you believe it?

This list also indicates that Real Madrid is in big trouble. They MUST buy young players now. As far as I know the new Financial Fair Play rules will also demand a certain number of own youth players being included in the squad of a football team. Assuming that the definition of "youth player" will be something like "players under 21 having played first team football with the club" or something like that, Real needs to buy now.

I think you're missing something

 

[Metaphysical]

Not so sure you can consider Thiago, Fontas, or Valdes crucial parts of the best Spanish NT in history (and clearly not Messi, who is not Spanish, but it seems you're not counting him anyway).

And I'd suggest you look back through footballing history -- there have been eras in which clubs produced or had immense pools of talent all coming up at once. Unless perhaps you're inferring that this is the first big jump at Barcelona?

I get what he's trying to say (I think... he's all over the place) the Quinte Del Butre had 5 canteranos whereas since Pep has come in we've had 11-10-11 (or something like that) in the first-team squad and he's promoted a whole bunch of other kids besides that. and that a large group of our canteranos were part of the Best Spanish Team Ever, and one of our canteranos is The Best Player in the World. his point is solid but he expressed it horribly, being too general.

anyway, there's not been a team like this for a long long time.

way back when, obviously, you had more home-grown teams. Celtic did the Quadruple in 1967 with players all from within 30 miles of Celtic Park, for example. but in the modern era, the only team to have anything like the cantera representation that we currently do is Ajax in the mid-90's. they appeared in two European Cup finals, just like us, but they lost the second one where we won it. and after that the team was soon scattered to the four corners of Europe. our team has stayed together and has achieved much more together and then separately with their various countries. I mean the Ajax contingent couldn't lead the Dutch to victory in '94 or '96, could they? which is what our Spanish lot did in '08 and especially '10.

 

[El Gato]

because despite the increased interest after the World Cup, top teams were hesitant to pay 13m for someone that would cost 6m in six months and then 0m in twelve. Madrid clearly decided that paying 13m and beating everyone to him would be worth it due to his talent, hence they made the move.

The point is that these clubs wouldn't get another chance after RM declared their interest. They would not stand a better chance later, because there were clear signs of interest from the juggernaut clubs immediately after the WC, which made their decision of pulling out in order to wait completely useless. It's not the clubs that didn't want him. They did, but not for as much as RM offered so pulling out proved to be a mistake, because the guy was worth the fee.

 

[Metaphysical]

The point is that these clubs wouldn't get another chance after RM declared their interest. They would not stand a better chance later, because there were clear signs of interest from the juggernaut clubs which made their decision of pulling out in order to wait completely useless. It's not the clubs that didn't want him. They did, but not for as much as RM offered so pulling out proved to be a mistake, because the guy was worth the fee.

other clubs obviously didn't feel that he was worth the fee. common sense says to not buy players after a great tournament as you'll usually get burned. add that to the fact that his contract was up in a year and I guarantee you the top clubs were all happy to let Özil stay there for a season and prove the World Cup wasn't a fluke, then compete to get him on a Bosman.

RM have more money than sense, though, and when Kaka got injured they bought him because they felt they had to (and, of course, because they could). no one else came in for him because to instigate a bidding war when a player will walk away for free in a year is a bit mental.

now it's worked out well in the end for Real, but at the time spending that kind of money on a world-cup-hyped youngster one season away from a Bosman was a risk.

 

[Deco 20]

Buying Özil for next to nothing was a great piece of business from RM side, you can't argue with that.

 

[Aryagorn]

You can tell a lot of Barca fans only started following this team around 2006, which is not a bad thing but they should make some effort to look at history. I've only been following the sport for under a decade myself, yet I know better than to talk shit about these things because all you have to do is read fucking wikipedia to understand how these things are cyclical, and there will reach a point where La Masia will dry up. It happened to Ajax, happened to every English academy of note - as much resources as Barca's academy has, as many great scouts and teachers there are, there will reach a point where the Catalan talent pool dries out and Barca training techniques are no longer ahead of the curve.

You look at the great Barca teams in the past - there was usually one or two great homegrown guys - a Rexach, a Guardiola, etc, and the rest were bought from other Spanish clubs, and this was before the Bosman ruling when there was a cap on foreigners. If you look at the teams of the 80s and 90s, it was Real Madrid who was more successful at producing a homegrown core. I mean really, is what Barca has done any different than the Quinta del Buitre?

I love talking shit about Real Madrid, they are a scum club with nazi fans who have been slowly killing football with their greed, but lets be realistic, when it comes to player development, Barcelona isn't historically superior to them.

every word

 

[Abaddon]

Obviously they did. Miguel Pardeza, one of 5 members of Quinta del Buitre, played only 28 games for Madrid and moved to Zaragoza, so there was 4 top cantera players really not 5. In Barcelona you have: Valdes, Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Pique, Messi, Busquets, Pedro, Thiago, Fontas. That's 11 not 5 and 10 of those 11 played more than 28 games and will play many, many more. And they are crucial part of best Spanish NT in history. There are many talented players in La Masia nowadays, not all of them will make it obviously but some will very soon. What FC Barcelona is experiencing nowadays has never been matched with such an enormous success, both at the club and NT, it's something very extraordinary.

Valdes, Thiago, Fontas are nowhere near crucial parts of the Spanish NT. Neither is Pedro actually, if we're really taking the crucial part seriously. Puyol is not a barcelona youth product.

 

[Abaddon]

I guarantee you the top clubs were all happy to let Özil stay there for a season and prove the World Cup wasn't a fluke, then compete to get him on a Bosman.

Oh Meta guaranteed it, well that ends the whole debate right here, doesn't it?

 

[soarq]

And I'd suggest you look back through footballing history -- there have been eras in which clubs produced or had immense pools of talent all coming up at once. Unless perhaps you're inferring that this is the first big jump at Barcelona?

I meant modern football obviously. When you can buy players all over the world, the Bosman ruling introduction time and few years before. It completely changes the perspective when you can just buy a top player if you can't get one from your town. No-one came close to what Barcelona has done since then.

 

[jamrock]

how many other top clubs had tabled at bid for ozil.

puyol join barca in 1995 and got promoted in 1999, the who he joined at 17 thing would make more sense if had played lets so one season with the youth team before he was promoted.

he is no Xavi, but he is no Cesc either, he played for the youth before being promoted to the B team, first as a midfielder before being moved to right back.

 

[estranged]

Oh Meta guaranteed it, well that ends the whole debate right here, doesn't it?

this dude clearly has mental problems

 

[AnfieldEd]

this dude clearly has mental problems

But he's often right...

 

[estranged]

if he's often right, then there is a massive conspiracy behind Barcelona's success in recent years and what not

 

[Raed]

you're conflating two separate points, one is right and one is wrong.

in the last 10 years, Barça has started to show the fruits of Cryuff's long-term strategy. the work of Rexach and Beniages is starting to be seen in the first-team. and now that we're on that carousel, I don't see us getting off. La Masia is producing high-quality players and will continue to do so. there's no reason the talent pool should "dry up" - that didn't happen to England; Heysel happened to England and they stood still for 5 years while European football had something of a renaissance thanks to Sacchi and a general improvement in coaching technique. so when the English emerged from Heysel, they found a landscape dominated by foreign imports and players with great technique. and so to catch-up they neglected their youth development and just brought in skilled foreigners from all over. but slowly, English coaching is catching up with the rest of Europe and this will be reflected more and more with each coming generation.

that's not what happened to Ajax either, the Bosman rule and the vastly increased earning power of Serie A (and La Liga, PL, BL, etc.) is what happened to Ajax. they were dwarfed financially and couldn't afford to keep the kids around for as long, or invest as much in them (but still produced the Sneijder-VDV-Zlatan generation) and unless the recession hits Spain like a Greece-level motherfucker, that won't happen to Barça, because now we know the power of the cantera and will continue to invest in it (see the brand spanking new state-of-the-art Masia we just opened). others may improve their youth coaching, for sure, but we'll always be ahead of the curve so long as we continue to invest. and thanks to the elections, we'll have to. no president could get away with neglecting La Masia and the cantera now. not after Pep.

however, you are correct that success is cyclical. and sooner or later we won't be winning as much. but that's an on-the-field issue, rather than one to do with youth development.

The point is that Barcelona spent, do spend, and will continue to spend large. With money or without money. Why? Because you are a big club. Your initial success came thanks to foreigners and spending well. The fact that you have brought players through, even at an insane number and quality, has not displaced your annual spending. It never will either. That was the point people were argued. Not what your academy has achieved which is indisputable.

Whether your academy will dry up or not is for the future to decide, I personally don't doubt that talent will come through but to have such relentless winners all come through at this rate is quite fascinating and rare. You will also need the right mix of foreign players who will not only fit into the team but also be modest. Barcelona's success humbles many, but all it takes is a player or two during times of hardship to send this tightly knit team onto a tangent (especially with your history of mistreating your heroes). If history did repeat itself for you then Kudos, you have revolutionized football a period of time longer than I have ever read about and it will be sensational for football in general.

Madrid had a legendary group but failed to win the CL in the 80s, and had they did win it once or twice, who knows? Perhaps there would have been more than five? But you know what happens to us when we don't win the CL, we got nuts.

Success breads success my friend but its a very sensitive chain, all it needs is one weak link and that train of success goes of the track. The success Barcelona is happy with today is because of foreigners Barcelona spent for, and an AC Milan legend and his assistant.

 

[Raed]

how many other top clubs had tabled at bid for ozil.

puyol join barca in 1995 and got promoted in 1999, the who he joined at 17 thing would make more sense if had played lets so one season with the youth team before he was promoted.

he is no Xavi, but he is no Cesc either, he played for the youth before being promoted to the B team, first as a midfielder before being moved to right back.

Striker, no?