Xavi Hernández

[te amo barca]

Not only the press. But he wasn't really a pivotal player in Spain's Euro 2004 team was he? A world class player for me has to be an important member of his national team. Xavi wasn't in 2004 as proven by him being a squad player for Spain in the major tournament of the period.

Not this again. This argument is flawed.

 

[FlaFCB]

It is not that easy. The players that played in front of Xavi were the starting CMs of the best team around that time. Valencia was champions of Spain in 2003-04. He had every right to pick them.

He was a bad coach, so much his tenure was short. It wasn't by chance that Xavi ended up as a starter and one of the most important players for Aragones' spain.

 

[serghei]

Not this again. This argument is flawed.

In what way?

 

[Barcaman]

Thou shall not speak Xavi name in vain needs to be inscribed somewhere.

 

[FlaFCB]

In what way?

You're conditioning a player's ability to the choices of a coach. By that logic, Hulk, Jo and Fred are wc players, because they played a lot for Brazil's Scolari, and the 2014 wc. And they're mediocre at best.

 

[raki]

You're conditioning a player's ability to the choices of a coach. By that logic, Hulk, Jo and Fred are wc players, because they played a lot for Brazil's Scolari, and the 2014 wc. And they're mediocre at best.

Hulk is amazing. Just choose money instead of career.

 

[serghei]

You're conditioning a player's ability to the choices of a coach. By that logic, Hulk, Jo and Fred are wc players, because they played a lot for Brazil's Scolari, and the 2014 wc. And they're mediocre at best.

Where have I said that just playing for the NT is enough? You also have to play great and be an important player. Neither Hulk, nor Jo or Fred were.

Even if we agree that Xavi's ability was amazing at 23-24, he was still not world class because he did not influence decisive games either for his team in CL, or for his country in international competitions. Regardless of the reason why he didn't do it - that discussion is extremely subjective anyway - the reality remains that Xavi started to dominate at the highest level for Spain and Barcelona from 2008 onwards. He started to be recognized as world class from then on. In 2003-2006 Deco was superior to Xavi imo and was recognized as such in the football world.

 

[BBZ8800]

Not only the press. But he wasn't really a pivotal player in Spain's Euro 2004 team was he? A world class player for me has to be an important member of his national team. Xavi wasn't in 2004 as proven by him being a squad player for Spain in the major tournament of the period.

Serghei, not again.

Barca in 2004 was a laughing stock in Europe, something like Milan or Arsenal today.
(Ok, in 2003/04 we were showing signs of improvement. But from 2000-2003 we were the biggest disaster ever.)
Real won 3 CLs in 1998, 2000 and 2002.
And if Spanish NT coaches needed Spanish players, they picked ALL Real's players because they were winning and they seemed to have a winning mentality.
Also, Valencia played 2 CLs finals back then and NT coaches used their players as the 2nd pick.

Real won La liga titles in 2001 and 2003, Valencia won titles in 2002 and 2004.
Euro was in a summer of 2004, right after Valencia won another La liga title.

Barca's players and our whole team were classed as a team of chockers back then, as we laugh at Ozil, Griezmann and similar players today.

So, Xavi was only 23, Barca was a mess, the whole world and Spanish press was laughing at Barca, Barca didn't have a spine, courage or players with a winning mentality.

Why would you pick players from looser's teams instead of playing with winning-proven players from Valencia and RM?
Back then, if I were a coach, i would also pick RM's and Valencia's guys.

Euro 2004, opening match:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2004_Group_A#Spain_vs_Russia

5 players from RM in the starting 11: Casillas, Bravo, Helguerra, Raul, Morientes
4 players from Valencia: Marchena, Albelda, Baraja, Vicente
1 player from Barca: Puyol
1 other player: Etxeberria

So, it wasn't that much about Xavi (in terms of an NT team).
It was about how Barca was extremely bad, without a spine, in a total mess, with a losing mentality and without players with a spine, leadership and winning mentality.

That situation was a somewhat similar to Pep's days when Barca was an absolute hit.
Imagine in the days of Pep: to remove someone from Busi-Xavi-Iniesta from the starting 11 in Spanish NT and playing some good youngster from AM (Koke) or RM.

No way.
Xavi-Iniesta-Busi bought their ticket for the next 5 years, that's how it works.

** On the other hand, Xavi wasn't as good as later.
During Pep, Xavi was the best CM in the world.

In 2004 or 2005, he was like Verratti today.
Not the best, but one of top5 Cms in the world.

So, yes, Xavi improved even more.
He improved from Top5-10 into a NO1 of a decade.
But in some posts here, it sounds as if Xavi in 2004 was on today's Rafinha's or Roberto's level :/

 

[FlaFCB]

Where have I said that just playing for the NT is enough? You also have to play great and be an important player. Neither Hulk, nor Jo or Fred were.

Even if we agree that Xavi's ability was amazing at 23-24, he was still not world class because he did not influence decisive games either for his team in CL, or for his country in international competitions. Regardless of the reason why he didn't do it - that discussion is extremely subjective anyway - the reality remains that Xavi started to dominate at the highest level for Spain and Barcelona from 2008 onwards. He started to be recognized as world class from then on. In 2003-2006 Deco was superior to Xavi imo and was recognized as such in the football world.

He was world class. Recognition and actual abilities are two different things. Deco wasn't superior to him, at all. Xavi was playing the way that made him famous since he moved to the first team. He improved with experience as it happens with many players, but his passing abilities and intelligence were already there.

 

[BBZ8800]

Xavi was my favorite player, and I could see his qualities back then. He didn't come out of nowhere, nor Pep taught him how to play football. He was playing like that since ever.

Mine too.
In late 90s, my absolute hero was of course Rivaldo.

In 2000-2003, besides Rivaldo, I remember that I adored Xavi, because he was our best midfielder and there was something special in his passes, movement, his IQ.
I also adored Lucho in early 2000s, because he was fighting like a lion, our only player with courage and passion.
So, it was: 1. Rivaldo 2.Xavi 3. Lucho for me

In our title winning seasons 2005 and 2006, apart from obvious favorites like Ronaldinho and Etoo (and later young Messi), Xavi was again my favorite player.
I never liked Deco that much (he was world class, but had 1-2 brainfarts in every match, while Xavi was like a computer, playing 20 matches in a row without a mistake).
Iniesta was too young and raw back then, Van Bommel wasn't our DNA.
During early Rijkaard (2004-2005-2006) it was (for me): 1. Ronaldinho/Etoo 3. young Messi 4. Xavi 5. Puyol

Once again, from how I remember, Xavi surely wasn't as good as during Pep.
But again, he was a Top 5-10 midfielder back then and then turned into GOAT during Pep.

So, Xavi in early 00s vs Xavi under Pep:
= was NOT: Rafinha turning into Xavi suddenly
= it was more like: a player like Verratti from Psg (a top5 Cm in the world) coming to Barca and then turning into an absolute beast and NO1 Cm in the world

Imo, a current Verratti is the closest to how good Xavi was in 2003 or 2005.
A world class players in whom you can see that he is very special.
But also, in that moment you couldn't say that he is an absolute No1 or No2 in the world (just like current Verratti).
Xavi matured later and Pep has built his team around him and then already a world class Xavi turned into a GOAT Xavi.

 

[FlaFCB]

Mine too.
In late 90s, my absolute hero was of course Rivaldo.

In 2000-2003, besides Rivaldo, I remember that I adored Xavi, because he was our best midfielder and there was something special in his passes, movement, his IQ.
I also adored Lucho in early 2000s, because he was fighting like a lion, our only player with courage and passion.
So, it was: 1. Rivaldo 2.Xavi 3. Lucho for me

In our title winning seasons 2005 and 2006, apart from obvious favorites like Ronaldinho and Etoo (and later young Messi), Xavi was again my favorite player.
I never liked Deco that much (he was world class, but had 1-2 brainfarts in every match, while Xavi was like a computer, playing 20 matches in a row without a mistake).
Iniesta was too young and raw back then, Van Bommel wasn't our DNA.
During early Rijkaard (2004-2005-2006) it was (for me): 1. Ronaldinho/Etoo 3. young Messi 4. Xavi 5. Puyol

Once again, from how I remember, Xavi surely wasn't as good as during Pep.
But again, he was a Top 5-10 midfielder back then and then turned into GOAT during Pep.

So, Xavi in early 00s vs Xavi under Pep:
= was NOT: Rafinha turning into Xavi suddenly
= it was more like: a player like Verratti from Psg (a top5 Cm in the world) coming to Barca and then turning into an absolute beast and NO1 Cm in the world

Imo, a current Verratti is the closest to how good Xavi was in 2003 or 2005.
A world class players in whom you can see that he is very special.
But also, in that moment you couldn't say that he is an absolute No1 or No2 in the world (just like current Verratti).
Xavi matured later and Pep has built his team around him and then already a world class Xavi turned into a GOAT Xavi.

I think Aragones was much more important to him than Pep. Luis gave Xavi the confidence he needed to take the next step.

 

[serghei]

Serghei, not again.

Barca in 2004 was a laughing stock in Europe, something like Milan or Arsenal today.
(Ok, in 2003/04 we were showing signs of improvement. But from 2000-2003 we were the biggest disaster ever.)
Real won 3 CLs in 1998, 2000 and 2002.
And if Spanish NT coaches needed Spanish players, they picked ALL Real's players because they were winning and they seemed to have a winning mentality.
Also, Valencia played 2 CLs finals back then and NT coaches used their players as the 2nd pick.

Real won La liga titles in 2001 and 2003, Valencia won titles in 2002 and 2004.
Euro was in a summer of 2004, right after Valencia won another La liga title.

Barca's players and our whole team were classed as a team of chockers back then, as we laugh at Ozil, Griezmann and similar players today.

So, Xavi was only 23, Barca was a mess, the whole world and Spanish press was laughing at Barca, Barca didn't have a spine, courage or players with a winning mentality.

Why would you pick players from looser's teams instead of playing with winning-proven players from Valencia and RM?
Back then, if I were a coach, i would also pick RM's and Valencia's guys.

Euro 2004, opening match:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2004_Group_A#Spain_vs_Russia

5 players from RM in the starting 11: Casillas, Bravo, Helguerra, Raul, Morientes
4 players from Valencia: Marchena, Albelda, Baraja, Vicente
1 player from Barca: Puyol
1 other player: Etxeberria

So, it wasn't that much about Xavi (in terms of an NT team).
It was about how Barca was extremely bad, without a spine, in a total mess, with a losing mentality and without players with a spine, leadership and winning mentality.

That situation was a somewhat similar to Pep's days when Barca was an absolute hit.
Imagine in the days of Pep: to remove someone from Busi-Xavi-Iniesta from the starting 11 in Spanish NT and playing some good youngster from AM (Koke) or RM.

No way.
Xavi-Iniesta-Busi bought their ticket for the next 5 years, that's how it works.

** On the other hand, Xavi wasn't as good as later.
During Pep, Xavi was the best CM in the world.

In 2004 or 2005, he was like Verratti today.
Not the best, but one of top5 Cms in the world.

So, yes, Xavi improved even more.
He improved from Top5-10 into a NO1 of a decade.
But in some posts here, it sounds as if Xavi in 2004 was on today's Rafinha's or Roberto's level :/

OK, so Barca was not that good in that period. Completely agree.
And that it is normal for a manager to pick players from the more in form teams. Again, I agree.

Does that prove Xavi would have performed great at NT level or in Champions League when he was 23-24? No it does not. The absence of games from Xavi at the highest level (Champions Leagues and Euro) at that age is a proven fact and can't be denied. Xavi was unproven at the highest level at that time, so he was not world class. Maybe he had the potential to be world class even since a young age, in a different context. That's different from actually being world class.

 

[FlaFCB]

OK, so Barca was not that good in that period. Completely agree.
And that it is normal for a manager to pick players from the more in form teams. Again, I agree.

Does that prove Xavi would have performed great at NT level or in Champions League when he was 23-24? No it does not. The absence of games from Xavi at the highest level (Champions Leagues and Euro) at that age is a proven fact and can't be denied. Xavi was unproven at the highest level at that time, so he was not world class. Maybe he had the potential to be world class even since a young age, in a different context. That's different from actually being world class.

Xavi was world class. After Aragonés he just became the greatest midfielder ever. If you were paying attention to him back then, you'd see what a top midfielder he already was. His absence doesn't prove anything. He was proving his worth against rm constantly. There wasn't a harder opposition to play against. It's curious how you insist on Xavi not being world class then, when you considered a much inferior player in Alexis, to already be wc when he was playing for Barça. Alexis at his top wasn't as good as Xavi already was at 23. Xavi was a special player. One that comes once in several generations.

 

[te amo barca]

Xavi and Iniesta are the greatest midfielders of all time, you just cannot say he was not good.

 

[serghei]

Xavi was world class. After Aragonés he just became the greatest midfielder ever. If you were paying attention to him back then, you'd see what a top midfielder he already was. His absence doesn't prove anything. He was proving his worth against rm constantly. There wasn't a harder opposition to play against. It's curious how you insist on Xavi not being world class then, when you considered a much inferior player in Alexis, to already be wc when he was playing for Barça. Alexis at his top wasn't as good as Xavi already was at 23. Xavi was a special player. One that comes once in several generations.

He was a top midfielder, just not world class for me for said reasons. Lack of games at the highest level, in CL and in Euro.

I don't remember saying Alexis was world class at Barca. If I did I was wrong.

Xavi and Iniesta are the greatest midfielders of all time, you just cannot say he was not good.

He was a top player at a young age, just not world class. Deco was better at the time, in 2004. And it's normal, because Deco was in his prime, Xavi wasn't.