10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[Pedro]

Can't just single out Messi here, the defence were shocking.

 

[mark1nhu]

It led to a goal because there was no cover. Same happened with Neymar. They are forwards, they take risks. What do you want, for them to pass the ball backwards everytime? And it will keep happening, as long as we play without a midfield.

I want them to choose wisely when to take risks. Is that too much? Are Messi and Neymar allowed to take risks wherever they want now?

NO.

Messi did have passing options in that play and decided very poorly to take risks dribbling opponents in an uncovered position (yes, he is responsible for knowing if he has cover for taking risks).

Sorry Flavia, I love Messi but he fucked up badly yesterday. It doesn't change anything to his GOAT status to me, but we don't need to cut him this much slack.

 

[FlaFCB]

I want them to choose wisely when to take risks. Is that too much? Are Messi and Neymar allowed to take risks wherever they want now?

NO.

Messi did have passing options in that play and decided very poorly to take risks dribbling opponents in an uncovered position (yes, he is responsible for knowing if he has cover for taking risks).

Sorry Flavia, I love Messi but he fucked up badly yesterday. It doesn't change anything to his GOAT status to me, but we don't need to cut him this much slack.

I'm not saying he played well, because he didn't. Everyone fucked up badly. But it wasn't because of that specific play that we lost. Had they not scored that goal, they would score another. They had plenty of chances, 4-0 was actually way better than it could had been. They missed some easy chances, MAtS also had at least 4 great saves. It could had been the beating of the century. But this bs of saying they shouldn't take risks... there's no way to "choose wisely" when you're playing. You try it. When it works, it's genius.

 

[mark1nhu]

I'm not saying he played well, because he didn't. Everyone fucked up badly. But it wasn't because of that specific play that we lost. Had they not scored that goal, they would score another. They had plenty of chances, 4-0 was actually way better than it could had been. They missed some easy chances, MAtS also had at least 4 great saves. It could had been the beating of the century. But this bs of saying they shouldn't take risks... there's no way to "choose wisely" when you're playing. You try it. When it works, it's genius.

Where and when did I say he is the responsible for our 4x0 defeat?

Yes, everyone fucked up badly, including Messi and that's my point. He was directly responsible for 1 conceded goal, we like it or not.

Also, why are you (you!) twisting my words?

I didn't say "he shouldn't take risks", I am saying "he should know WHEN and WHERE to take risks".

One thing is trying to counter attack after a corner and risk losing the ball when your entire team is crowding your box (and you have no passing option).

Another thing is your entire team moving forward (including defenders), with some safe passing options available, and you take risks trying to take on not one but two opponent players. Your entire team is caught on the wrong foot if things don't work out.

This is "risk management" and a player of Messi's caliber KNOWS THAT. Messi KNOWS THAT, but he was utterly frustrated and took a horrible decision because of that (something we humans do).

Jesus Christ, Flavia. This is not BS, this is a very simple concept applicable to every player, specially Neymar, our ultimate "risk taker" (his thread would be on fire if he had lost that ball, with easy passing options available, btw).

I can't believe you, the most reasonable person I know in this forum, can think this is bullshit.

Finally, I didn't say "choose wisely when to play", I said "choose wisely when to take risks". If Messi decided to play instead of to take a risk in that moment, he would have chosen an easy safe pass.

We would still get defeated, I agree. But that's not the point (never was, so I don't understand why you brought this to the matter).

 

[FlaFCB]

Where and when did I say he is the responsible for our 4x0 defeat?

Yes, everyone fucked up badly, including Messi and that's my point. He was directly responsible for 1 conceded goal, we like it or not.

Also, why are you (you!) twisting my words?

I didn't say "he shouldn't take risks", I am saying "he should know WHEN and WHERE to take risks".

One thing is trying to counter attack after a corner and risk losing the ball when your entire team is crowding your box (and you have no passing option).

Another thing is your entire team moving forward (including defenders), with some safe passing options available, and you take risks trying to take on not one but two opponent players. Your entire team is caught on the wrong foot if things don't work out.

This is "risk management" and a player of Messi's caliber KNOWS THAT. Messi KNOWS THAT, but he was utterly frustrated and took a horrible decision because of that (something we humans do).

Jesus Christ, Flavia. This is not BS, this is a very simple concept applicable to every player, specially Neymar, our ultimate "risk taker" (his thread would be on fire if he had lost that ball, with easy passing options available, btw).

I can't believe you, the most reasonable person I know in this forum, can think this is bullshit.

Finally, I didn't say "choose wisely when to play", I said "choose wisely when to take risks". If Messi decided to play instead of to take a risk in that moment, he would have chosen an easy safe pass.

We would still get defeated, I agree. But that's not the point (never was, so I don't understand why you brought this to the matter).

Sorry, but it is bs. How the hell can the player foresee when it's safe or not to try to dribble? If it was safe, it wouldn't be a risk. What you won't see him doing, it's doing that inside our own box. That turnover wasn't even that bad. Verratti strolled with the ball for a long time before making the pass to Draxler. Iniesta was by his side, Busquets was standing in the box. No one closed down on him. Don't know where gomes was. Alba also didn't close down on Draxler, he could shoot like he wanted. Messi could or should had run after verratti, sure, but I think he thought it'd be covered.

Neymar lost a ball that ended up in a psg goal too. He's not being crucified because it was not his fault.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Completely agree with this.
It's not a matter of having a horrible game, EVERYBODY had it in the history of football, it's a matter of being totally, completely souless.

These are those kind of things which completely undermine his legacy, because you can go down (everybody will go down sooner or later, nobody was/is/will be eternal) but at least put up a fight.
It's shocking how he doesn't seem to realize how games like this one or those against Atletico in CL last year are really hurting his credibility, almost as shocking as his totally lack of stamina. But even if he doesn't have stamina anymore, he could and SHOULD use his amazing football talent as well as his amazing football IQ to try to help and GUIDE his teammates as much as possible. THAT is what the best in the World and one of the best in history should do, even in defeats.

Unfortunately, he is no longer the big game player he once was. I'd even say go as far as saying that he has the tendency to turn himself off in more important/high-stake games these days. Don't know why.

 

[MagIX]

Yes, I do have a problem with that

I think you didn't get what I said. I have nothing against him being criticized, I do that too. But Messi loses the ball in dangerous positions a lot, because he plays with risk. Dribbling is a risk. He'll always need cover, and bitching about his lack of running is something strange to me, because he plays like that since he was 20. The problem yesterday was the whole team and lack of tactics. This supposedly "attitude" problem is a myth. People questioning Messi, Iniesta, Busquets or Pique is really strange, these guys gave it all on the pitch multiple times. This was coming for a long time, the lack of tactics make the players confused and unable to do anything when they face an organized and well put team. This already happened vs Bilbao and atletico recently. In other games too, but in those Messi bailed us out.

I agree about the lack of tactics, or better told in 1 word, our main problem: LUCHO
I agree that Messi plays too many matches (and again the same problem: Lucho). Imo some "easy" matches at home, he could stay with his family and recover well.
I agree that he can't run up and down in every match, against every team...
BUT in some matches yes

We was playing CL 1/8 final vs PSG, a BIG BIG Match, we are not playing vs Mallorca.
In these matches you have to give not 100%, but 200%. In these matches you have to finish the match with the tongue to the ground.
And even more in this case, when the team was suffering and in serious difficulties. For me, if I have a bad day and/or I see
my team suffering like yesterday, instinctively I react and try and try and try to help in every way, i do not walk on the pitch
like a lost soul.
I am sorry, but I do no think that i pretend too much.

 

[FlaFCB]

Unfortunately, he is no longer the big game player he once was. I'd even say go as far as saying that he has the tendency to turn himself off in more important/high-stake games these days. Don't know why.

He's been playing farther from goal, and not having as many touches as he used to. The garbage tactics affected everyone. Still, Messi has been bailing us out consistenly. But it's harder to do that vs top teams, with licho's shit tactics.

 

[Luftstalag14]

He's been playing farther from goal, and not having as many touches as he used to. The garbage tactics affected everyone. Still, Messi has been bailing us out consistenly. But it's harder to do that vs top teams, with licho's shit tactics.

Yes to all but I felt his level of participation and involvement goes down mysteriously in big/important/high-stake games when it should be going up, for some reason. Head scratching stuff.

 

[Ritchie]

Knew after a minute or two he wasn't up for it. His body language was off and I knew we'd get stuffed there and then as the poor man has had to carry the team on his back all season. He may as well have not been there yesterday though, he was terrible.

We're a dreadful team and it's not fair to expect Messi to have to carry us. It's not enough when you're playing against top European sides. Leo needs to do himself a favour and leave unless the club go out and buy a new midfield (top players, not more crap) and a top drawer coach in the summer. He shouldn't sign a contract without those guarantees.

 

[Ritchie]

Unfortunately, he is no longer the big game player he once was. I'd even say go as far as saying that he has the tendency to turn himself off in more important/high-stake games these days. Don't know why.

Losing the finals with Argentina has affected him.

The Ballon D'or was lost last night. That's already in the bag for Penaldo. Messi's career is going out with a whimper here while Penaldo is having his biggest successes, yet Penaldo is the one who has declined. He's just in a terrible team for club and country.

 

[Hardy]

Messi also has declined, less than Ronaldo but has declined physically.

 

[Pedro]

Barca went out to their boogey team in the CL Athletico in last year's Quarter Finals, so going out this year in the Last 16 to PSG is not much difference. The point is Barca are a long way from winning it like they did in 2015, unless they strengthen the midfield and make some changes. They need to focus on the league now and try win that and copa del rey.

 

[bismp]

Messi also has declined, less than Ronaldo but has declined physically.

Messi obviously was and still is better than CR,but keep in mind that he is also 2 years younger.

 

[Cool]

I really wonder if he noticed that him playing behind Suarez is ineffective against big times?

Or if Lucho noticed that.