10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[Xaviniesta]

and could be signing another player this winter.

Arda Turan will be brought back from the dead. Like a new signing

 

[DonAndres]

But this is just the thing, it can't only be about Messi. The wings and midfield have to occupy defenders too or take advantage of the space being afforded to them if focus is on Messi. Same thing would happen if he played on the wing and drifted centrally. Messi is a thing of beauty on that RW and I really miss his running and cutting in from the flank but his tendency to drift centrally also exposes us defensively because you now have a CM taking up the wide space as well as attempting to deal with the LB.

Watch the Madrid games against us... Marcelo always has a feast down the left flank (like it's Christmas) and causes all sorts of problems because he has no leash. He doesn't have take care of Messi, as well as basically having nobody mark him. Compare this to Madrid vs Dortmund in both legs. Danilo/Marcelo and the centre backs didn't know what to do because Dembele (as RW and AM) ran them ragged. He kept pulling them out of position, running at them etc as well as dropping back in defence. When that happens spaces open up for other players.

Messi's defensive ability is basically non-existent and with him being our chief goal scorer it's best he take up a central position. With the False 9, 4-3-3 system it is imperative that we play a left wing too so I'd say what is going to screw us is Suarez being an automatic starter because he is not suitable for that role (can't defend either) and playing Dembele/Denis LW, Suarez CF and Messi RW exposes us defensively. To counter this we could obviously switch to a flat 3-4-3 system but we'd then have to sacrifice an attacking CM because Busquets would definitely take up a place.

Trying to fit Messi and Suarez or any CF into the same starting line up is Lucho's conundrum. Valverde has figured out that playing Messi wide is a no-no but he has stubbornly persisted with a vacant left wing. Suarez is the hindrance here and it's time the other Suarez is played as LW.

I agree about Messi being a defensive liability and I don't even mind him playing in the central areas. When we had Neymar earlier in preseason the system was almost like a midfield diamond with Messi at the tip behind Neymar and Suarez (Ney played more inside with freedom to drift in the games under Valverde). We barely had enough time to see Dembele but it was kinda the same system except with Suarez and Dembele switched laterally.

Also in most situations last year even if Messi's position was pseudo-RW or whatever, he'd be the highest positioned player during our defensive phase the way the team shapes up in its own half when defending. He gets to rest more defensively when he's "pressing" CB's compared to having to track fullbacks up and down the pitch, and he's also the highest outlet to start a quick counter attacks after our defenders recover the ball. When we transitioned forward slowly with buildup, Messi would be one of the deeper players in attack (sometimes nearest to Busquets even) and be involved in creation from deeper zones. That's an ideal way of doing it because he's the most advanced player in defense and one of the deepest in offense, so he doesn't have to run up and down much and can get involved easily. Any system we use now should (and most of the time does) have Messi as the highest player when defending (and usually not marking the LB). It lowers his exertion and masks his defensive shortcomings.

However in more recent games with the 4-4-2 ish setup that Valverde has, Messi spends a lot of time pretty much next to Suarez occupying CB's. That's not ok as we need him involved as much as possible and he is too static off the ball to play as a 9. Even if he's false 9 or CAM at the tip of a diamond (an arbitrary distinction IMO) he needs to be deeper when we're on the ball. If we had great midfielders he could comfortably chill in the pocket between midfield and defense and still be plenty involved, but we are horribly weak in midfield and at advancing the ball centrally without Leo to do it himself so he has to play deeper than that and basically as a midfielder. Either way, him playing practically in line with Suarez is not an effective system and takes away much of Leo's crucial involvement in creating.

I think/hope Valverde will change things back when Dembele returns but this trend itself isn't good as the team plays visibly much worse when Messi is stuck high (first half vs Olympiacos is an example). He needs to be enabled to drive forward as much as possible. I think our strongest lineup/formation is this:



With Alba bombing forward to occupy the left flank the way he did earlier this season. Paulinho also seems to help our transition and help get Messi involved, generally playing more vertically with him on the pitch. This is important because faster transitions are more suited for Dembele and can help enable Messi even despite our weak mid. Also Suarez mostly performs better in open spaces. As long as Messi isn't playing at the highest line and has space to drive at opponents, he'll maintain his usual level of productivity.

Edit: formation thing didn't work

 

[MessiCam]

I agree about Messi being a defensive liability and I don't even mind him playing in the central areas. When we had Neymar earlier in preseason the system was almost like a midfield diamond with Messi at the tip behind Neymar and Suarez (Ney played more inside with freedom to drift in the games under Valverde). We barely had enough time to see Dembele but it was kinda the same system except with Suarez and Dembele switched laterally.

Also in most situations last year even if Messi's position was pseudo-RW or whatever, he'd be the highest positioned player during our defensive phase the way the team shapes up in its own half when defending. He gets to rest more defensively when he's "pressing" CB's compared to having to track fullbacks up and down the pitch, and he's also the highest outlet to start a quick counter attacks after our defenders recover the ball. When we transitioned forward slowly with buildup, Messi would be one of the deeper players in attack (sometimes nearest to Busquets even) and be involved in creation from deeper zones. That's an ideal way of doing it because he's the most advanced player in defense and one of the deepest in offense, so he doesn't have to run up and down much and can get involved easily. Any system we use now should (and most of the time does) have Messi as the highest player when defending (and usually not marking the LB). It lowers his exertion and masks his defensive shortcomings.

However in more recent games with the 4-4-2 ish setup that Valverde has, Messi spends a lot of time pretty much next to Suarez occupying CB's. That's not ok as we need him involved as much as possible and he is too static off the ball to play as a 9. Even if he's false 9 or CAM at the tip of a diamond (an arbitrary distinction IMO) he needs to be deeper when we're on the ball. If we had great midfielders he could comfortably chill in the pocket between midfield and defense and still be plenty involved, but we are horribly weak in midfield and at advancing the ball centrally without Leo to do it himself so he has to play deeper than that and basically as a midfielder. Either way, him playing practically in line with Suarez is not an effective system and takes away much of Leo's crucial involvement in creating.

I think/hope Valverde will change things back when Dembele returns but this trend itself isn't good as the team plays visibly much worse when Messi is stuck high (first half vs Olympiacos is an example). He needs to be enabled to drive forward as much as possible. I think our strongest lineup/formation is this:

View attachment 7463

With Alba bombing forward to occupy the left flank the way he did earlier this season. Paulinho also seems to help our transition and help get Messi involved, generally playing more vertically with him on the pitch. This is important because faster transitions are more suited for Dembele and can help enable Messi even despite our weak mid. Also Suarez mostly performs better in open spaces. As long as Messi isn't playing at the highest line and has space to drive at opponents, he'll maintain his usual level of productivity.

Edit: formation thing didn't work

I like this in general. Messi as False 9 or even a 10. Regarding Messi’s position when transitioning though I think you will find that he always drops deep into midfield. It was like that with Xavi and Iniesta too but I agree a better midfield than currently would allow him more time between the lines.

What I don’t like about it is that it is Lucho inverted. Left to right and Suarez is incapable of playing as a wing/striker hybrid like a Henry or Villa could.

If you can, watch Napoli play. They use the same False 9 system, only they press a lot higher and harder but they play out and out wingers. Madre de dios, they look awesome going forward whether that be on fast breaks or temporate build ups and pound for pound I’d say we have the better midfield.

 

[Raketa10]

Any news regarding his new contract? When will he sign it?

 

[Neymessi]

If you want to see real Messidependencia, re-watch the last Argentina games.
But avoid it if you have depressions. Could end you.

That is a super extreme form of messidependencia.

Doesn't mean we don't have it here at barca.

 

[Ritchie]

Messi is a part of Barça. If he's the leveller then they are not stronger than Barça.

Yes, but the leveller requires him to perform miracles which even he can only do so often.

It's like Argentina. Without Messi they'd never have got to the World Cup and wouldn't have a prayer without him at the World Cup.

With him though they've got a chance but teams like Germany, Brazil and Spain are far better. You're relying on Messi having a perfect game to beat these teams.

 

[Windhook]

Neither glucose nor gum... Lionel Messi took an Almax in Olympiakos game

 

[xXKonan]

[tw]921427610495840262[/tw]

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Express reporting Messi has asked Valverde for a break in Copa Del Rey game vs Murcia next tuesday.

I'd say give him his break, I think this is perfect spot to take it and If we can't win vs Murcia without Messi we don't deserve to win the competition anyway....

 

[Truthist]

He shouldn't play a Copa Del Rey game all season. We need him up carry us more than ever and our latter part of the season will be dependant on his freshness and form.

 

[CatalinR10]

Any news regarding his new contract? When will he sign it?

,, As soon as we find a photographer "

- Barto 2016

 

[Ritchie]

He shouldn't play a Copa Del Rey game all season. We need him up carry us more than ever and our latter part of the season will be dependant on his freshness and form.

This is the key. Messi and Barca use too much energy on this second rate tournament in Jan and Feb while Real have been knocked out early last 2 seasons and won the CL.

Copa is only worthwhile as part of a double or treble not as a consolation prize.

 

[henias]

[MENTION=14236]Ritchie[/MENTION] Messi can be stubborn at times, forces himself too much, in a way its good because he has that passion, hardworking and always puts in a 100% effort. But I think he himself should know his age and fatigue is catching up and really do deserve a rest. Even if Messi disagrees, Valverde has to be more commanding and know who to rest.

What I like about Lucho is that he knows even best player needs to rest but he rested them against Real Sociedad in 2014 which he gets condemned for and then was really afraid to do rotations after that dreadful loss. Nothing wrong with rotations but good managers need to know which match to use ur best player.

 

[mia7007]

For sure he will be rested in midweek Copa match. And today against Malaga he should be rested if we reach HT with 2 goals ahead

 

[JamDav1982]

For sure he will be rested in midweek Copa match. And today against Malaga he should be rested if we reach HT with 2 goals ahead

He will be rested for cup but he wont come off in todays game. He doesnt want to and managers go with a happy Messi.