10 - Lionel Messi - v5

BruceWayne11

New member
He's a bit too predictable right now, although the same could be said about the team in general. Needs to change it up, something I think we'll see vs Chelsea. I hope he has become wiser with the years, so that he's saving his best for big games.
 
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Messi983

Senior Member
Take out any one of Suarez and Messi and you’ll how easy it is for the other to score with wingers driving at the defenders.

I was away for a few days so didn't follow the whole discussion and it's possible I've missed something but the problem here is we don't really have wingers who would do what you're talking about.

Yes, we can use Coutinho as LW but
1. He's used to move centrally often so you can't really expect him to stay on the wing and take on defenders the whole game like Neymar did to create more space for Messi/Suarez in the middle. Yes, Cou could and I don't doubt he would (try to) adapt if that's what EV would ask him to do but I don't think that's the case. I think EV deliberately doesn't want to play with a full-time LW because he wants to give more offensive freedom to Alba. With our interest in Griezmann (who again could be used as "false winger" but is more comfortable in the middle) instead of another true winger I don't think EV is planning to use a traditional 4-3-3 that you want even in the next season(s).

2. Cou can't play in CL so I don't see EV using one system in La Liga and other in CL.

With Dembele's injury problems our only wingers are Denis and Vidal who are both not good enough to be starters which we can probably agree on.

Do you think we'd do better with Coutinho-Messi-Vidal/Denis in 4-3-3 than Iniesta/Cou-Busi-Raki-Gomes/Paulinho; Messi-Suarez in 4-4-2? I don't. We should have the best players in the lineup and both Messi and Suarez are undoubtely among our best 11 players. (Gomes/Paulinho are not but I still think they give us more than Denis/Vidal - and that's coming from probably one of the biggest Vidal's supporters here). Valverde's job is to find the right balance and formation to use those 11 players and he's done that so far and I don't doubt he'll do it in the future again after he'll find out how to utilise both Coutinho and Dembele (though we most likely won't see much of him until next season) with the rest of the team.


I don’t expect Valverde to do it though but as someone alluded to yesterday it appears that he is caught between 2, maybe even 3 systems. The third being a 4-2-3-1.

Of course EV is trying to find the best position for Coutinho but I don't think he's caught between different systems. I have total confidence he knows what he's doing. He can experiment with different lineups and players in trainings but you can only find out if and how some things you're working on in tranings will look in game situations. Sometimes they work, other times they don't. EV didn't have a preseason with Coutinho and Dembele so it's understandable he has to do that now in La Liga games. With our good lead he could afford that but I think he'll go back to the proven 4-4-2 against Chelsea, AM and in other important games.
 

behindbrowneyes

Well-known member
I was away for a few days so didn't follow the whole discussion and it's possible I've missed something but the problem here is we don't really have wingers who would do what you're talking about.

Yes, we can use Coutinho as LW but
1. He's used to move centrally often so you can't really expect him to stay on the wing and take on defenders the whole game like Neymar did to create more space for Messi/Suarez in the middle. Yes, Cou could and I don't doubt he would (try to) adapt if that's what EV would ask him to do but I don't think that's the case. I think EV deliberately doesn't want to play with a full-time LW because he wants to give more offensive freedom to Alba. With our interest in Griezmann (who again could be used as "false winger" but is more comfortable in the middle) instead of another true winger I don't think EV is planning to use a traditional 4-3-3 that you want even in the next season(s).

2. Cou can't play in CL so I don't see EV using one system in La Liga and other in CL.

With Dembele's injury problems our only wingers are Denis and Vidal who are both not good enough to be starters which we can probably agree on.

Do you think we'd do better with Coutinho-Messi-Vidal/Denis in 4-3-3 than Iniesta/Cou-Busi-Raki-Gomes/Paulinho; Messi-Suarez in 4-4-2? I don't. We should have the best players in the lineup and both Messi and Suarez are undoubtely among our best 11 players. (Gomes/Paulinho are not but I still think they give us more than Denis/Vidal - and that's coming from probably one of the biggest Vidal's supporters here). Valverde's job is to find the right balance and formation to use those 11 players and he's done that so far and I don't doubt he'll do it in the future again after he'll find out how to utilise both Coutinho and Dembele (though we most likely won't see much of him until next season) with the rest of the team.




Of course EV is trying to find the best position for Coutinho but I don't think he's caught between different systems. I have total confidence he knows what he's doing. He can experiment with different lineups and players in trainings but you can only find out if and how some things you're working on in tranings will look in game situations. Sometimes they work, other times they don't. EV didn't have a preseason with Coutinho and Dembele so it's understandable he has to do that now in La Liga games. With our good lead he could afford that but I think he'll go back to the proven 4-4-2 against Chelsea, AM and in other important games.

Great post!
 
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MessiCam

Guest
I was away for a few days so didn't follow the whole discussion and it's possible I've missed something but the problem here is we don't really have wingers who would do what you're talking about.

Yes, we can use Coutinho as LW but
1. He's used to move centrally often so you can't really expect him to stay on the wing and take on defenders the whole game like Neymar did to create more space for Messi/Suarez in the middle. Yes, Cou could and I don't doubt he would (try to) adapt if that's what EV would ask him to do but I don't think that's the case. I think EV deliberately doesn't want to play with a full-time LW because he wants to give more offensive freedom to Alba. With our interest in Griezmann (who again could be used as "false winger" but is more comfortable in the middle) instead of another true winger I don't think EV is planning to use a traditional 4-3-3 that you want even in the next season(s).

2. Cou can't play in CL so I don't see EV using one system in La Liga and other in CL.

With Dembele's injury problems our only wingers are Denis and Vidal who are both not good enough to be starters which we can probably agree on.

Do you think we'd do better with Coutinho-Messi-Vidal/Denis in 4-3-3 than Iniesta/Cou-Busi-Raki-Gomes/Paulinho; Messi-Suarez in 4-4-2? I don't. We should have the best players in the lineup and both Messi and Suarez are undoubtely among our best 11 players. (Gomes/Paulinho are not but I still think they give us more than Denis/Vidal - and that's coming from probably one of the biggest Vidal's supporters here). Valverde's job is to find the right balance and formation to use those 11 players and he's done that so far and I don't doubt he'll do it in the future again after he'll find out how to utilise both Coutinho and Dembele (though we most likely won't see much of him until next season) with the rest of the team.
Yes, Coutinho should definitely cut in. His purpose would be that of an inverted winger. That's his style and his best position in my opinion. Dembélé can take care of the RW. His ball losses were overblown in the Getafe game... He created chances and was dangerous both close to the box and when carrying the ball from deep. In fact both Coutinho and Dembélé were more dangerous than Suarez.

Anyway, I'm talking about balance here and I have been all along. People are getting caught up in this whole Dembélé/Coutinho thing when the bigger problem is the accommodation of both Messi and Suárez. This is and always has been the problem. I don't think there is anybody that disagrees on that... In order to get the best players on the field and maintain a balanced squad in terms of our bread and butter midfield one of Messi or Suarez has to sit out. To accommodate both with a 4-2-3-1 you end up leaving one of Iniesta or Coutinho out in a significantly weakened midfield and it's the same with the 4-4-2 that includes Coutinho/Iniesta and Dembele. In fact it ends up being a lopsided 4-2-3-1 in any event. Then we have the issue of Suárez touch and general play not being of sufficient quality for him to be a sole striker.

Why do you think the goals have dried up recently? Messi is too deep because their is no creativity in central midfield with a double pivot of Busquets and Rakitic and Suárez is just being Suárez with his allround play being below standard apart from the goals. In order to play a 4-2-3-1 a deep lying playmaker is needed. Show me one top team that plays a 4-2-3-1 without a deep lying playmaker...

I'd much rather Valverde go back to his workhorse 4-4-2 then. But then what was the point of spending all that money on 2 technical and creative players?



Of course EV is trying to find the best position for Coutinho but I don't think he's caught between different systems. I have total confidence he knows what he's doing. He can experiment with different lineups and players in trainings but you can only find out if and how some things you're working on in tranings will look in game situations. Sometimes they work, other times they don't. EV didn't have a preseason with Coutinho and Dembele so it's understandable he has to do that now in La Liga games. With our good lead he could afford that but I think he'll go back to the proven 4-4-2 against Chelsea, AM and in other important games.

This is not true. Valverde already knows Coutinho's best positions (he clearly doesn't see him as a CM) and that's why he is played wide on either flank. It's the same for Dembele... Valverde's problem is Messi and Suárez and fitting them into the same 11. The same problem Lucho had still exists and Valverde continues to faff around despite more than half the season already gone.

That comfortable lead you speak of has been reduced to something uncomfortable already with games against Valencia, Atleti and Madrid still to be played.

With players available our best bets are 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 with workhorses.
 

MagIX

Senior Member
`^
"Anyway, I'm talking about balance here and I have been all along. People are getting caught up in this whole Dembélé/Coutinho thing when the bigger problem is the accommodation of both Messi and Suárez. This is and always has been the problem. I don't think there is anybody that disagrees on that... In order to get the best players on the field and maintain a balanced squad in terms of our bread and butter midfield one of Messi or Suarez has to sit out."
"Valverde's problem is Messi and Suárez and fitting them into the same 11."

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Maybe Messi has to sit out to accomodate Couthino or Dembele ? Valverde's Problem is Messi and fitting him in the same 11 with Dem and Cou ????
 
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Yes, Coutinho should definitely cut in. His purpose would be that of an inverted winger. That's his style and his best position in my opinion. Dembélé can take care of the RW. His ball losses were overblown in the Getafe game... He created chances and was dangerous both close to the box and when carrying the ball from deep. In fact both Coutinho and Dembélé were more dangerous than Suarez.

Anyway, I'm talking about balance here and I have been all along. People are getting caught up in this whole Dembélé/Coutinho thing when the bigger problem is the accommodation of both Messi and Suárez. This is and always has been the problem. I don't think there is anybody that disagrees on that... In order to get the best players on the field and maintain a balanced squad in terms of our bread and butter midfield one of Messi or Suarez has to sit out. To accommodate both with a 4-2-3-1 you end up leaving one of Iniesta or Coutinho out in a significantly weakened midfield and it's the same with the 4-4-2 that includes Coutinho/Iniesta and Dembele. In fact it ends up being a lopsided 4-2-3-1 in any event. Then we have the issue of Suárez touch and general play not being of sufficient quality for him to be a sole striker.

Why do you think the goals have dried up recently? Messi is too deep because their is no creativity in central midfield with a double pivot of Busquets and Rakitic and Suárez is just being Suárez with his allround play being below standard apart from the goals. In order to play a 4-2-3-1 a deep lying playmaker is needed. Show me one top team that plays a 4-2-3-1 without a deep lying playmaker...

I'd much rather Valverde go back to his workhorse 4-4-2 then. But then what was the point of spending all that money on 2 technical and creative players?





This is not true. Valverde already knows Coutinho's best positions (he clearly doesn't see him as a CM) and that's why he is played wide on either flank. It's the same for Dembele... Valverde's problem is Messi and Suárez and fitting them into the same 11. The same problem Lucho had still exists and Valverde continues to faff around despite more than half the season already gone.

That comfortable lead you speak of has been reduced to something uncomfortable already with games against Valencia, Atleti and Madrid still to be played.

With players available our best bets are 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 with workhorses.

Coutinho's dribbling ability is definitely good, above average and one of the best on the team, but I find it to be a tad overrated. He cannot be expected to consistently beat his man on the wing, that simply is not the type of player he is. He is at is best when he's on the the left corner of the box as a LAM and is given the opportunity use his ability to change direction to cut inside quickly and take a shot or make a killer through pass.

I don't think we'll have much success playing him as an out and out winger. Forcing him to stick to the touchline on the left flank would not make for the best use of his abilities. Even when played as a winger he has a tendency to drift in from the left towards to middle, but the problem for us is that the middle is already too congested with Messi and Suarez. No matter where he is played whether it be LW or LM he eventually finds himself at the top of the box. We saw this yesterday against Getafe especially, he vacated his allotted LM position to move into a left central position on the edge of the box.

I believe he can be a good CM with if we get him to be a bit more tactically disciplined. He needs to be told not to make runs into the box after passing the ball and maintain a general shape. If he can do that he can be a good Iniesta replacement for us since he has all the tools needed to be a great attack minded CM. Just needs a bit of fine tuning.
 
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MessiCam

Guest
`^
"Anyway, I'm talking about balance here and I have been all along. People are getting caught up in this whole Dembélé/Coutinho thing when the bigger problem is the accommodation of both Messi and Suárez. This is and always has been the problem. I don't think there is anybody that disagrees on that... In order to get the best players on the field and maintain a balanced squad in terms of our bread and butter midfield one of Messi or Suarez has to sit out."
"Valverde's problem is Messi and Suárez and fitting them into the same 11."

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Maybe Messi has to sit out to accomodate Couthino or Dembele ? Valverde's Problem is Messi and fitting him in the same 11 with Dem and Cou ????

Then do it if it benefits the team. I don't see it so maybe you can explain it to me...

As far as I can gather you want Messi to sit out so that Coutinho or Dembélé can play in the hole. Is that right? Who then plays on the wing vacated by either of them? How does that fix the central midfielder issue? Where's the deep lying playmaker?
 
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MessiCam

Guest
Coutinho's dribbling ability is definitely good, above average and one of the best on the team, but I find it to be a tad overrated. He cannot be expected to consistently beat his man on the wing, that simply is not the type of player he is. He is at is best when he's on the the left corner of the box as a LAM and is given the opportunity use his ability to change direction to cut inside quickly and take a shot or make a killer through pass.

I don't think we'll have much success playing him as an out and out winger. Forcing him to stick to the touchline on the left flank would not make for the best use of his abilities. Even when played as a winger he has a tendency to drift in from the left towards to middle, but the problem for us is that the middle is already too congested with Messi and Suarez. No matter where he is played whether it be LW or LM he eventually finds himself at the top of the box. We saw this yesterday against Getafe especially, he vacated his allotted LM position to move into a left central position on the edge of the box.

I believe he can be a good CM with if we get him to be a bit more tactically disciplined. He needs to be told not to make runs into the box after passing the ball and maintain a general shape. If he can do that he can be a good Iniesta replacement for us since he has all the tools needed to be a great attack minded CM. Just needs a bit of fine tuning.

Wait. Who said a winger has to hug the touchline all the time? He is an inverted winger that cuts in and makes a pass or he shoots. He did it for 90% of his career at Liverpool and Espanyol...

A CM at Barcelona is not going to find himself at the corner of the box you speak of. He'd have to play more centrally than that.
 
Wait. Who said a winger has to hug the touchline all the time? He is an inverted winger that cuts in and makes a pass or he shoots. He did it for 90% of his career at Liverpool and Espanyol...

A CM at Barcelona is not going to find himself at the corner of the box you speak of. He'd have to play more centrally than that.

The middle is too clogged with Messi and Suarez, not sure how well cutting inside would work here, that's why I suggested some alternatives like adapting himself to play CM.
 

henias

New member
The middle is too clogged with Messi and Suarez, not sure how well cutting inside would work here, that's why I suggested some alternatives like adapting himself to play CM.

I feel the same way. Both Coutinho and Suarez should be testing the defenders line. But Coutinho likes to stay outside the box, and dribble inwards and Messi does the same. Problem now is Messi is a heavy dribbler along those areas, and Coutinho should be making more runs behind the defence.

We aint wasting all that posession just for Messi and Coutinho to constantly take long shots. Coutinho needs to do much more like Iniesta, linking up with Alba more, overlap more, may be try to be creative and make some good lob balls. But for now, he hasnt quite grasp all this yet, and going for long shots isnt quite ideal for Barcelona. He tends to do that alot for Liverpool but it aint working if opponents park the bus.
 
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MessiCam

Guest
The middle is too clogged with Messi and Suarez, not sure how well cutting inside would work here, that's why I suggested some alternatives like adapting himself to play CM.

One of Messi or Suarez are dropped. Front 3 would be Coutinho LW - Messi/Suarez CF - Dembele RW.

I think some are getting confused or need a refresher as to how Barca's positional play works...

IMG_0452.jpg

In the image above take note of the red line where the final third starts. After that players are allowed to move around/cut in as they please. Positional integrity is only to be maintained during build up and play out from behind. The pivot is also expected to maintain his position in and around the centre circle. What also happens is that those playing on the left half cannot move over to the right half and vice versa apart from the centre forward who on occasion is expected to drop deep. The only time they get freedom is in the final third.

What we have happening with Valverde's system is players moving all over the place particularly Rakitic and Paulinho. Pay close attention when watching games how Busquets, Iniesta and Dembélé maintain their positional integrity. Dembélé played under Tuchel and is very aware of his positioning.
 
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MessiCam

Guest
I feel the same way. Both Coutinho and Suarez should be testing the defenders line. But Coutinho likes to stay outside the box, and dribble inwards and Messi does the same. Problem now is Messi is a heavy dribbler along those areas, and Coutinho should be making more runs behind the defence.

We aint wasting all that posession just for Messi and Coutinho to constantly take long shots. Coutinho needs to do much more like Iniesta, linking up with Alba more, overlap more, may be try to be creative and make some good lob balls. But for now, he hasnt quite grasp all this yet, and going for long shots isnt quite ideal for Barcelona. He tends to do that alot for Liverpool but it aint working if opponents park the bus.

But this is problem we have with Suárez as a sole striker. Everybody thought it would be a good idea for him to be the one occupying the CB's... What they're doing is completely ignoring him and using the offside trap. The result of this is he drifts left and Messi is having to do a lot more from deeper which includes taking long shots.
 
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MessiCam

Guest
^ I will readily admit that RW Messi is the most wonderful thing you’ll ever witness on a football field.

They planning on playing him there against Chelsea?
 

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