10 - Lionel Messi - V6

El Gato

Villarato!
Lol. Okay. Don't ruin a good debate.

It's a half serious point. Feel free to address or leave it.

And if not Pep or Klopp (who clearly both have no intention of coming to Barcelona in the next 1-2 years at least), then does every manager who doesn't end up managing Messi properly in the near future qualify as a coward (current manager) or some variant of a mediocre failure (Lucho)? Where does this classification start and end?
 

serghei

Senior Member
I’ve got to agree with Serghei. Messi is dropping back in the middle of the park, but he is doing it because team needs it, not because he loves doing it. He does it because our 5 year long starter CM (hello Rakitic) is a coward who won’t play a forward pass to save his life. He prefers to hide behind Busquets and Piqué.

From time to time, Messi also dropped deep when we had Xavi-Iniesta vs bus parking teams, but
1) it was much less frequent than now
2) he never went as deep as he’s going now

At City, Messi would play in the last third because guys like KDB and the 2 Silva would feed him greatly in that area. Messi receiving good balls in the last third is the deadliest thing in football. Would he still come to middle of the pitch sometimes ? Probably. But that would be the exception not the rule.

That was my little contribution. But anyway [MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5226]Wolfe[/MENTION] it’s a good football centered debate you two are having. It’s good to see that there are people who can watch and analyze football with their eyes, talk about tactics, instead of spreading stats based bullshit like some here are masters at.

Pretty much.

He did drop a bit back in the days of the false 9, but that was to join the triangles and sometimes free one of the 3, most notably Iniesta, who was also a dangerous last 3rd player in his own right. Xavi as well who had his own incursions in attack too (not as often but still notable, check the goal vs Madrid in the 5-0, the first one, when Messi drops and Xavi appears in the hole scoring past Casillas with calm). Not to get ball to feet while the other 3 midfielders stood behind him and watched basically how Messi is supposed to solve everything with only Suarez and sometimes Alba as offensive references.
 
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serghei

Senior Member
Put Pep, Klopp or Pochetino in charge of FC Barcelona in the last few years and you'd see what a strong willed character who is also a great tactical mind would do with such an outlier like Messi. The only one after Pep who was a no non sense kind of guy was Lucho but he was pretty poor at the tactical aspect of management that he isn't in that category. Well, Tito was probably the best balance of both but unfortunately he became ill as soon as he got the job. RIP.

Anyway, my point is the same as serghei's. It's not entirely fair to put all the blame on Messi for the fact that he looks uncoachable. He is set in his ways, it's true, but there's also the fact that the managers he had after Guardiola were some of the most mediocre ones.

To me, a great manager has to have three things.

- Strong character, he should be in fact the leader and no player should have a voice over him. Leadership on the pitch is not more important that this.
- Great tactical mind, duh.
- Charisma. One of the most underrated qualities for a manager. It's no use having the above 2 characteristics if you can't convey it to the players in a way that they will always believe that what they're doing on the pitch is the best way to win.

Just look at the last managers we had and tell me one who meets all 3 of those qualities. Hell, you could argue that Tata Martino had none ffs. Lucho was strong willed but average to poor on the other fronts while Valverde has some tactical acumen(he doesn't even excel at this tbh) but is absolutely garbage at the other 2.

The players had to figure it out themselves for the most part. Unfortunately they have the self awereness of a blind sloth.

Yes, every dominant team starts with a great manager.

Porto, Chelsea, Inter with Mourinho (all dominant teams in their league and with great success in Europe playing a defensive physical style mostly).
Atletico with Simone (he put Atletico back in the European top 10 from a Bilbao level team in La Liga, and kept it there for years in a row).
Liverpool, Dortmund with Klopp (spectacular teams and a pleasure to watch, Dortmund last team to win back to back titles in Germany not named Bayern, CL finalists).
Barcelona with Pep (nothing to say here, the best).
Bayern with Heynckes and then Pep (dominant team always in the upper stages of CL playing top football).
Zidane with Madrid, especially in CL (can't argue with 3 in a row, special run having beaten a lot of elite sides).
Pochettino with Tottenham (at a lower level since no trophies, but CL final with Tottenham is incredible)

All have leadership and charisma to spare. Especially leadership. And all have tactical nous, with different styles obviously.
 
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underoath

Banned
Meh, not totally surprised Messi said that. But my sympathies for him definitely reduced. He also can't see past results just like most players.

For all the shitshow in NT and Barca down to his teammates and coach, he still thinks it was all due to a bad day. Actually, this makes me have more sympathetic for him.
So it's Valverde's fault that the regular veteran starters fck up against Liverpool? There's a reason why you guys just watch football and them playing and managing a team.
 

FCBfan22

Senior Member
So it's Valverde's fault that the regular veteran starters fck up against Liverpool? There's a reason why you guys just watch football and them playing and managing a team.

Typical 1D chess from biraboyz.

If you actually read our posts, you would see that a lot of us blame the senior players too.
 

eaman

Active member
So it's Valverde's fault that the regular veteran starters fck up against Liverpool? There's a reason why you guys just watch football and them playing and managing a team.

I sort of agree but you can't defend him for playing 3 defensive midfielders in both games. It was clear in the first game it did not work and we were lucky they didn't score a few. If Arthur had started at anfield I'm pretty sure we would be in the final.
 

Jakabor

Well-known member
And he deserves it for supporting Valverde.

Messi is an idiot for backing Valverde and being delusional.

Bye bye Balon d’Or.
 

Ripsta

New member
Well Leo, if you had any common sense you'd get the fuck out of this poisonous club ASAP. Go to the Prem, join City, secure your legacy.
 

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
Well Leo, if you had any common sense you'd get the fuck out of this poisonous club ASAP. Go to the Prem, join City, secure your legacy.

Messi is one of the reasons we became what we are. He is too comfortable here, he does not want to change anything.
 

CatalinR10

Senior Member
Well Leo, if you had any common sense you'd get the fuck out of this poisonous club ASAP. Go to the Prem, join City, secure your legacy.

nah fam , he's content and suporting mediocrity.

At this point I can't feel to bad for him , in the end it's me who ends up heartbroken whenever we lose a game / league / cl qualification not him with his perfect life.
 

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