11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[Joan]

I don't think it had (too) much to do with tactics.

Dembele had lazy attitude vs. Sevilla and this can be seen as a disciplinary measure.

On the other hand, it's good to have an alternative, Roberto-Semedo combo.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

If you're afraid to start Dembele at home against Roma then the only matches you would be okay with him playing would be against the minnows of La Liga.

Rome was risking it a lot. It was fine for us to sit back and let them make mistake.

 

[krakdol]

I'm starting to feel Barcelona was a bad choice for Dembele. What's the point paying 150 million$ if you make him rot on the bench or try to turn him in a midfielder ?

Tuchel knew how to use him a lot better than Valverde. He had more freedom on the pitch and he had the right to be creative, that's why he became their best player. As a midfielder, he'll always suck compared to the best, that's not what he is...

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

I'm starting to feel Barcelona was a bad choice for Dembele. What's the point paying 150 million$ if you make him rot on the bench or try to turn him in a midfielder ?

Tuchel knew how to use him a lot better than Valverde. He had more freedom on the pitch and he had the right to be creative, that's why he became their best player. As a midfielder, he'll always suck compared to the best, that's not what he is...

We can't let every player have freedom to do whatever they want. We alreadu have Messi waking around and Suarez most of the time. Even Neymar was running back and defending. Dembele should do the same.

 

[krakdol]

It goes beyond defending, he defended pretty well wih Dortmund. But if all you ask him is making lateral passes you won't get anything interesting from him. His strength is 1v1, creativity, speed, dribbling, using both feet. You must make him take more risks, not less. Make more forward runs. He looks like he's afraid to take risks since he got there. Tuchel used him so much better.

 

[BBZ8800]

How is this working out for you?

We didn't play Messi-Suarez-Dembele, Iniesta-Roberto-Busi.
We still played with two good old workhorses in Rakitic and Roberto.

EV did surprise me though with Semedo+Roberto combination.

EV makes surprising lineups sometimes, but luckily, workhorses are always here in key matches

Couldn't have performed any worse than Roberto did. Roberto lost possession a lot of times and didn't add anything to the attack.

But, he added in defense.
And even with only 2 attacking players, we scored 4.

Defense was solid and our 2men attack usually scores the same or even more than our 3 or 4men attack from the past.

If you're afraid to start Dembele at home against Roma then the only matches you would be okay with him playing would be against the minnows of La Liga.

But we won 4:1 without Dembele.
What, Dembele playing or not playing is the most important question in the current Barca?

Barca won.
Who cares who played.
11 guys on a field were good.

I'm starting to feel Barcelona was a bad choice for Dembele. What's the point paying 150 million$ if you make him rot on the bench or try to turn him in a midfielder ?

Tuchel knew how to use him a lot better than Valverde. He had more freedom on the pitch and he had the right to be creative, that's why he became their best player. As a midfielder, he'll always suck compared to the best, that's not what he is...

They don't have Messi.
Dembele was a key player at Borrussia and a whole team was built around him.

That will never happen at Barca.
He will be one of the guys, not a key guy.
If he can't adapt, we'll just buy a new Dembele, like always.

It goes beyond defending, he defended pretty well wih Dortmund. But if all you ask him is making lateral passes you won't get anything interesting from him. His strength is 1v1, creativity, speed, dribbling, using both feet. You must make him take more risks, not less. Make more forward runs. He looks like he's afraid to take risks since he got there. Tuchel used him so much better.

If Barca has 50 actions and if Dembele "ruins" or plays 1 vs 1 in 10 actions, that means that Messi will touch the ball in only 40 other actions.
If Barca has 50 actions and if Dembele plays 1 vs 1 in 40 actions, that means that will touch the ball in only 10 other actions.

In short, Barca don't need Dembele currently to play 1 vs 1 in tons of actions.
Again, we have Messi for that:
Dembele is one of the guys.
He needs to adapt to that role.

 

[krakdol]

You may buy another young player (not another Dembele) but you'll lose money and time on this one if you sell after doing nothing with him, so what's the point ?

And Messi will be old pretty soon, it's not like he's 20 so it's time to think about future.

It's not about allowing 1v1 by the way, just getting the best of every player to make the team better.

What you say only cements what I think, it's probably a bad fit for him, like it was a bit for Neymar too. I think I see better why he left now. He couldn't be 100 % himself on the pitch.

While it does make some sense that everything's built around Messi in the team, I'd say then he probably needs more traditional sidekicks (basic wingers or good midfielders), not creative attackers / dribblers around him, so Dembele's probably not the best choice.

 

[BBZ8800]

You may buy another young player (not another Dembele) but you'll lose money and time on this one if you sell after doing nothing with him, so what's the point?

If you look at Dembele or any player as if he is "the only one" and now we have to stick with him no matter what, then looking for a new guy is a defeat since we will lose some money and time on Dembele's case.

On the other hand, if you look at players like me, and I like to call them just "attempts", then not too much is lost.
Zlatan was an attempt.
It didn't work.
We moved on and we even improved.

This is not about Dembele, it is about any signing, Coutinho, Dembele, Deulofeu, Paco, Gomes, Paulinho...
If "an attempt" is not working, we'll just move on to the next target.

Over years we have just moved on 10s of times with some star signings like Riquelme, Mendieta, Simao, Quaresma, Saviola, Zlatan and this is why I am personally not emotionally attached to any player.
Any player, if he'll fit well=will usually stay here longer.
But if a guy is a strange fit or something is not working=we sold 10s of similar players over years after a season or two. And lots of them were very young.

So, about Dembele or any player ever at Barca, he could turn into a new Ronaldinho or get sold after only 12 Months.
Absolutely all options are always possible and don't be surprised by anything.

 

[BarcaMessi]

Not surprised with starting on the bench. Benching him for 90 minutes with a 3-0 lead is a waste.

 

[LeeRomeno]

Dembele should not start in big games for this season. Lineup we had vs Roma should be our starting 11 in CL semis and hopefully final. Hopefully he will have a good preseason with the team with Coutinho and be more integrated next season and more calm and fixes his attitude issues as well.

 

[snowy]

I'm starting to feel Barcelona was a bad choice for Dembele. What's the point paying 150 million$ if you make him rot on the bench or try to turn him in a midfielder ?

Tuchel knew how to use him a lot better than Valverde. He had more freedom on the pitch and he had the right to be creative, that's why he became their best player. As a midfielder, he'll always suck compared to the best, that's not what he is...

and therein's the error --> benching him or not using his creative qualities. Using only Messi as a creator will only lead to more MessiDependencia and provide a playbook for other teams. Zero variety means zero surprise. Messi in the Roma game was crowded by up to 7 players at times. That's just dumb dumb. Despite that, he almost manage to score and assist a few times but that's just cuz, well, he's Neo. Better tactics would make his job so much easier, so now that Demb & Semedo are no longer injured, it would be foolish not to use them more.

They both can create tons of chances individually and in synergy, even more. Messi wouldn't be obligated to roam back as much and ignite plays from MF. With ney on the right and couti in MF, it would've been close to my Dream Team. We'd have had creative forces up the ying yang! Messi, Suarez, OG & HTP would never get drained and they could've focused on scoring goals galore. Threats would've come from all sides and opponents would've been petrified, stupefied, and ultimately mortified hehe

 

[BBZ8800]

and therein's the error --> benching him or not using his creative qualities. Using only Messi as a creator will only lead to more MessiDependencia and provide a playbook for other teams. Zero variety means zero surprise. Messi in the Roma game was crowded by up to 7 players at times. That's just dumb dumb. Despite that, he almost manage to score and assist a few times but that's just cuz, well, he's Neo. Better tactics would make his job so much easier, so now that Demb & Semedo are no longer injured, it would be foolish not to use them more.

They both can create tons of chances individually and in synergy, even more. Messi wouldn't be obligated to roam back as much and ignite plays from MF. With ney on the right and couti in MF, it would've been close to my Dream Team. We'd have had creative forces up the ying yang! Messi, Suarez, OG & HTP would never get drained and they could've focused on scoring goals galore. Threats would've come from all sides and opponents would've been petrified, stupefied, and ultimately mortified hehe

Why is 90% of posts on our forum only about attack and creating more chances?

There is not a single word in your post about defending and balance.
And then, EV's team is this good because we improved a lot in defense and in balance, and yet our attack is almost equally as good as in Pep's or MSN's days.

Again, my estimation in numbers:
Pep/MSN:
Attacking Strength: 100%
Defending: 50%

Valverde:
Attacking Strength: 90%
Defending: 100%

We lost only a tiny amount of an attacking power in attack, but we gained tons in defense.
We are scoring 2-3 goals in almost every match and we are conceding 0-1 in every match and that means that we are winning almost every match.

With EV, you will get tons of:
2:0
2:1
1:0 matches

With more attacking power, you will get hot and cold:
5:0
3:3
6:0
4:4 and similar matches all the time.

Messipendencia this and that, where exactly?
How many times this season have we actually struggled in attack?
Or again we have to wait for "bigger teams" who will exploit us and our poor attacking power under EV?

** This is not attack against your post, but about majority of posts who talk mostly about Dembele, attacking power, even more attacking more, how we should attack more, how this is not good etc.
And yet, EV is on a way to win a treble in his debut season.

Imo, we weren't as strong (in a CL's terms) as this season since 2011', just my opinion.

 

[KingLeo10]

Why is 90% of posts on our forum only about attack and creating more chances?

There is not a single word in your post about defending and balance.
And then, EV's team is this good because we improved a lot in defense and in balance, and yet our attack is almost equally as good as in Pep's or MSN's days.

Again, my estimation in numbers:
Pep/MSN:
Attacking Strength: 100%
Defending: 50%

Valverde:
Attacking Strength: 90%
Defending: 100%

We lost only a tiny amount of an attacking power in attack, but we gained tons in defense.
We are scoring 2-3 goals in almost every match and we are conceding 0-1 in every match and that means that we are winning almost every match.

With EV, you will get tons of:
2:0
2:1
1:0 matches

With more attacking power, you will get hot and cold:
5:0
3:3
6:0
4:4 and similar matches all the time.

Messipendencia this and that, where exactly?
How many times this season have we actually struggled in attack?
Or again we have to wait for "bigger teams" who will exploit us and our poor attacking power under EV?

** This is not attack against your post, but about majority of posts who talk mostly about Dembele, attacking power, even more attacking more, how we should attack more, how this is not good etc.
And yet, EV is on a way to win a treble in his debut season.

Imo, we weren't as strong (in a CL's terms) as this season since 2011', just my opinion.

agree mostly, but 2015 team was way stronger in the KO stages of the season and on a level with the 09 and 11 teams.

1-2 v city and 1-0 at home
1-3 v PSG and 2-0 at home
3-0 v Bayern and leading 1-2 at HT at allianz before suarez was subbed and we conceded a couple in garbage time.
3-1 v the strongest juve team of the last 4-5 years (the one that actually knocked out madrid).

that's 6 wins out of 7 in CL KO rounds.

 

[Judoman]

Agree with BBZ8800 . The balance, that Valverde produced gets overlooked, due to less flashy game we are playing. Balance is the key to winning cups, see---->La liga performance.

Regarding Dembele, i have no doubt, that he will shine in the future. I didn t expect much from him this season and even less since he s been missing for half of it.
I think it makes perfect sence to not play him in the big CL games, where experience is cruical. He and Coutinho will have a long pre-pre season in La liga without real preasure.

I have a felling, that this season is only the overture of the next few years of dominance. But i m usually a big optimist

 

[snowy]

Jack: Offense gets the glory
Yaz: but defense wins the game

lol

Heya BBZ, well I can only speak for myself but remember that under MSN, our right side and MF were completely limp. Ney was good at tracking back so it's not impossible for Demb to do the same, right? So my question is: why would adding creative attack lines automatically lead to a weaker Defense? Can't the point also be made that a stronger attack would keep teams on their heels and actually support Defense?

If creating chances only falls on Messi, then wouldn't other teams just constantly crowd him and doesn't it make that much harder for him to operate, specially if he needs to drop back deeply.

besides, it's not like Demb has zero experience and is the belle du jour at the Manhattan debutante ball. Suppose he's able to track back and contribute defensively, then why suppress the creative aspects of his game where he can bring the ball forward, draw players in and create space/assists for our scorers?