7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1

[xXKonan]

I want to see him under a different coach.

But right now at least in Valverde's case, he's the wrong player for what Valverde needs. In Valverde's mind, he's not disciplined enough for a Midfield role and he only sees him as an LM/LW. But at LW though he isn't what we need because he isn't a Winger.

To sum it up in Gif Form.

 

[serghei]

Yea, let's see him under a better manager for a club like ours and we can make a conclusion. He's not a winger. He's an offensive midfielder stuck in a team who doesn't uses midfield for creating chances for goal.

We use Alba + Messi to create chances, coupled with Dembele's runs and dribbles and Suarez fighting with defenders to create space. Almost nothing comes from midfield. Very rarely do you see a vertical pass from there. You barely see attacking players making runs when the ball is in midfield because they know most of the time the ball goes to Messi or wide, usually to Alba, but also to Roberto. We pass wide whenever Messi is not open for a pass.

The problem is not with Coutinho. Coutinho was world class under Klopp and is shit now under Valverde for a while. Quality doesn't disappear over night. He is poorly managed and played off position. Don't understand why did we sign an Iniesta replacement when we don't use that role anymore?

If the plan is and was to use 3 defensive players who can do tackles and protect the defense behind the front trio we should've stayed away from Coutinho. Shows a poor understanding of the team's style and tactics.

 

[fergus90]

16/17 season he was incredible, the other seasons he had periods of being a bit invisible but his general level was far better than he is showing now. I remember watching him live at Wembley in fa cup semi final 2015 when my club beat Liverpool and despite scoring he was pretty invisible then but he was crucial to Liverpool in general.

His natural ability is amazing but he needs to be more consistent with it at Barca.

 

[Barcaman]

Guy was a beast for Liverpool and playing great for Brazil but gets bogged down at Barca, of all places. Apparently, creative and offensive players are thing of the past nowadays.

Fuck you Valverde.

 

[khaled_a_d]

With some attacking midfielders, they can adapt well on the wing but Coutinho is not one of them.

Except Coutinho is a LW/LM who tried to adapt as attacking midfielder for NT and here and there with clubs. when we 1st tried to sign him in 2017 he barely played AM in his Liverpool career

Yea, let's see him under a better manager for a club like ours and we can make a conclusion.

Next season we will probably get a new manager, but what if Coutinho remains shit? Is it going to be the new manager is awful? I mean we won't get everyone's beloved Pep/Klopp/Tuchel/Sarri so whoever coming here won't have the resume that makes people convinced that it is the players not the manager.
I am honestly asking, when can we hold players accountable?
Dembele/Vidal/Arthur all look far better than Coutinho and responded when the coach didn't play them, Suarez can be shit at times but always fight back.
I hope Coutinho fights back, he is top 10 players in terms of abilities right now even if he doesn't have position in our team. but even then you need to show a portion of quality and he isn't doing that for some time.

 

[serghei]

Next season we will probably get a new manager, but what if Coutinho remains shit? Is it going to be the new manager is awful? I mean we won't get everyone's beloved Pep/Klopp/Tuchel/Sarri so whoever coming here won't have the resume that makes people convinced that it is the players not the manager.
I am honestly asking, when can we hold players accountable?
Dembele/Vidal/Arthur all look far better than Coutinho and responded when the coach didn't play them, Suarez can be shit at times but always fight back.
I hope Coutinho fights back, he is top 10 players in terms of abilities right now even if he doesn't have position in our team. but even then you need to show a portion of quality and he isn't doing that for some time.

Well, let's apply things logically.

I agree Coutinho does not have a very clear position that is flat out compatible with our system, which is a 4-3-3. He is somewhat a cross between a forward and a midfielder. But it is possible for players who don't have a natural fit with a certain style to get accustomed to a new role under the proper manager and the proper guidance. Plenty of cases of players who have been played in slightly different positions than people anticipated, and did great.

The real question here is what are the qualities that the next manager should have in order to pull this off, integrating a player like Coutinho into a style and a setup that might not be custom made for him. That's not easy to do if you are not a very good manager.

First would be to have guts and courage. It's not going to work if the new manager is too scared to experiment a bit and plays it safe all the time to the point that everyone knows in advance what subs he will make or when, or what tactics he would use. Everything takes work and guts. There are more managers out there who have the required qualities. Many aren't even superstars. I don't know who exactly fits the best. Maybe Setien from the names we all know and watch. Maybe.

Second would be about fluidity. This one is pretty important. Fluidity means imo the skill of having players moving a lot off the ball while keeping the shape. Which means movement in a rehearsed and planned manner. The shape is kept, but the movement is fluid meaning there are many instances when passes and interplay can happen between midfielders. Pass and move, 1-2s, these things have been lost at Barca for a while, and Coutinho is the type of player who could really feel comfortable because he is smart, and he has very good technique. But when you basically make him run a lot, doing basically nothing much on the ball because every fellow midfielder is static, you ask him to basically cover a huge area, because you are basically too damn scared of taking any risks even against much inferior opposition at home, then we really can't be sure about anything regarding whether Coutinho will work or not.

We need to integrate into our game a style of defending that is not individual, but systemic. Guardiola uses a midfield 3 at City formed from one DM and two AMs like David Silva and De Bruyne, both who have been turned into all rounded midfielders. Neither of those is good defensively when taken individually, but the fluidity of City's game means opponents can't actually isolate a player like David Silva, and expose his lack of physique, lack of speed or his pretty advanced age. You put David Silva and De Bruyne into our midfield, and Valverde would bench both in 10 games max. I can guarantee you that.

Third would be about leadership skills. I don't want to see a team led by veterans who want more money while they embarass themselves in CL for 3 years in a row.

So, let us sign a manager that is not afraid to try new things, one that plays a fluid system and doesn't try to go Simeone to protect a slim lead against teams we could play off the park, and somebody that is ready to take the challenge and command this team, and then we'll see if Coutinho can make it or not.

Under this manager, with these tactics, with basically 3DMs almost in midfield, and without having pace to beat players 1 vs 1, what the hell is Coutinho supposed to do exactly? Score a trademark golazo from 25m wide once every 15 games? He could do that, but that's just not worth 140m.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Well, let's apply things logically.

I agree Coutinho does not have a very clear position that is flat out compatible with our system, which is a 4-3-3. He is somewhat a cross between a forward and a midfielder. But it is possible for players who don't have a natural fit with a certain style to get accustomed to a new role under the proper manager and the proper guidance. Plenty of cases of players who have been played in slightly different positions than people anticipated, and did great.

The real question here is what are the qualities that the next manager should have in order to pull this off, integrating a player like Coutinho into a style and a setup that might not be custom made for him. That's not easy to do if you are not a very good manager.

First would be to have guts and courage. It's not going to work if the new manager is too scared to experiment a bit and plays it safe all the time to the point that everyone knows in advance what subs he will make or when, or what tactics he would use. Everything takes work and guts. There are more managers out there who have the required qualities. Many aren't even superstars. I don't know who exactly fits the best. Maybe Setien from the names we all know and watch. Maybe.

Second would be about fluidity. This one is pretty important. Fluidity means imo the skill of having players moving a lot off the ball while keeping the shape. Which means movement in a rehearsed and planned manner. The shape is kept, but the movement is fluid meaning there are many instances when passes and interplay can happen between midfielders. Pass and move, 1-2s, these things have been lost at Barca for a while, and Coutinho is the type of player who could really feel comfortable because he is smart, and he has very good technique. But when you basically make him run a lot, doing basically nothing much on the ball because every fellow midfielder is static, you ask him to basically cover a huge area, because you are basically too damn scared of taking any risks even against much inferior opposition at home, then we really can't be sure about anything regarding whether Coutinho will work or not.

We need to integrate into our game a style of defending that is not individual, but systemic. Guardiola uses a midfield 3 at City formed from one DM and two AMs like David Silva and De Bruyne, both who have been turned into all rounded midfielders. Neither of those is good defensively when taken individually, but the fluidity of City's game means opponents can't actually isolate a player like David Silva, and expose his lack of physique, lack of speed or his pretty advanced age. You put David Silva and De Bruyne into our midfield, and Valverde would bench both in 10 games max. I can guarantee you that.

Third would be about leadership skills. I don't want to see a team led by veterans who want more money while they embarass themselves in CL for 3 years in a row.

So, let us sign a manager that is not afraid to try new things, one that plays a fluid system and doesn't try to go Simeone to protect a slim lead against teams we could play off the park, and somebody that is ready to take the challenge and command this team, and then we'll see if Coutinho can make it or not.

Under this manager, with these tactics, with basically 3DMs almost in midfield, and without having pace to beat players 1 vs 1, what the hell is Coutinho supposed to do exactly? Score a trademark golazo from 25m wide once every 15 games? He could do that, but that's just not worth 140m.

So basically, it is all about manager and players can't be held responsible? I mean in Coutinho case as he is going full Hleb atm?

 

[serghei]

So basically, it is all about manager and players can't be held responsible? I mean in Coutinho case as he is going full Hleb atm?

When you have proven quality players underperforming after being great under a different manager, then yea, it's mostly the change that is the reason. Coutinho is the same player he was when he played for Liverpool. Only he was used better there, and a main reason for that was playing under a world class manager who is much better at his job than Valverde is.

I've seen Valverde's profile of a manager before too, you know. The conservative type, afraid to take risks. Many managers have fallen into this trap, thinking that if you have someone like Messi and Suarez up front all you need to do is bring some legs in midfield and keep it tight and everything will be fine. But then again, at some point you meet serious teams who do well to cut the supply to our attackers. And we suddenly find out that it doesn't matter we have Messi and Suarez if they touch the ball a combined 5 times in a game.

 

[khaled_a_d]

When you have proven quality players underperforming after being great under a different manager, then yea, it's mostly the change that is the reason. Coutinho is the same player he was when he played for Liverpool. Only he was used better there, and a main reason for that was playing under a world class manager who is much better at his job than Valverde is.

I've seen Valverde's profile of a manager before too, you know. The conservative type, afraid to take risks. Many managers have fallen into this trap, thinking that if you have someone like Messi and Suarez up front all you need to do is bring some legs in midfield and keep it tight and everything will be fine..

You keep mentioning EV, but what about Coutinho himself?
I can understand the whole coach thing, but no club will be able to get their prince charming coach you describe; all the time, and if that is the level of coaches that Coutinho need to play then he is simply a bust.
Coaches plays a role in every player, but that role at some point is limited, there is a limit to the degree of struggle that can be attributed to the coach, with Coutinho if he wasn't playing to his full potential then ok, blame EV, I myself said that Coutinho is a player that EV should be blamed about, but then he declined even way more, like he doesn't even give a shit. And when you reach that level it isn't on the coach anymore, player should take the blame.
Again, Coutinho struggling right now is way beyond any other player to blame the coach. He need to respond and rebound and right now it is only on him to do so and I am not even asking for Coutinho of Liverpool

 

[serghei]

You keep mentioning EV, but what about Coutinho himself?
I can understand the whole coach thing, but no club will be able to get their prince charming coach you describe; all the time, and if that is the level of coaches that Coutinho need to play then he is simply a bust.
Coaches plays a role in every player, but that role at some point is limited, there is a limit to the degree of struggle that can be attributed to the coach, with Coutinho if he wasn't playing to his full potential then ok, blame EV, I myself said that Coutinho is a player that EV should be blamed about, but then he declined even way more, like he doesn't even give a shit. And when you reach that level it isn't on the coach anymore, player should take the blame.
Again, Coutinho struggling right now is way beyond any other player to blame the coach. He need to respond and rebound and right now it is only on him to do so and I am not even asking for Coutinho of Liverpool

Valverde should use Coutinho in a creative role in midfield. If our manager doesn't think any of our midfielders should have any creative role in the team then of course he lets Coutinho on the bench.

Coutinho is off form and his attitude needs to improve, but the biggest issue for me is that he is an attacking minded midfielder in a team and under a manager that uses all of the 3 available spots in midfield for players who bring more defensive coverage than he does. And the 2nd big problem is that said players play all the time, almost every single game. So basically, he almost never plays in the role he played at Liverpool before we signed him.

Valverde doesn't have any idea what to do with him, and this is pretty much at the base of his poor performances. Sure, he should still know better that downing tools is never an option if he wants to make it here.

So, in a way, main thing that is affecting his performances in recent months is poor management from Valverde, but still, his reaction to this predicament is far from the right one, or the one a world class player should show.

 

[abiabi]

you guys are judging him off cameos lmao.

i prefer to remember how good he was against madrid, tottenham, etc. hes a big game player. plus hes coming off an injury so he needs like 3 starts in a row to get that rythm back

 

[D10S_JC]

Barca won't sign him if he is not Brazilian. We're repeating Fabregas tragedy trying to shoehorn him into the formation. I hope PSG is interested in him so we can take a stop loss.

 

[abiabi]

I wonder if Poch wouldn't snap our arms for Coutinho for Eriksen. Eriksen isn't even a starter for Spurs lol.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Valverde should use Coutinho in a creative role in midfield. If our manager doesn't think any of our midfielders should have any creative role in the team then of course he lets Coutinho on the bench.
So basically, he almost never plays in the role he played at Liverpool before we signed him.

Where is the whole "he is AM" is coming from? Coutinho was always a LW before he arrived, he played AM with his club during his career only a season and half (last half season with Liverpool, and 14/15 season) and we have tried to sign him before that half season so not sure how it is the role we were signing him for. needless to say in both times Liverpool midfield improved when he was no longer a midfielder.
And again this was said by many before who he was signed. People were truly imagining things when they though he is Iniesta heir in midfield, it isn't like it is hindsight or anything
Coutinho was always a Neymar replacement, same with Dembele, and EV is surely an idiot that he didn't see that before he was signed after staying here for half (successful) season where he should had a say in the transfer.

 

[Messigician]

Don't need him.

Dembele is faster, has a higher ceiling, and is building team chemistry.

What can Coutinho do Dembele cant on the wing? .


Stupid stupid decision buying Coutinho