8 - Pedri

[BBZ8800]

As long as the team has weaknesses in basically any area from "Barca DNA" shortcomings like height and strength all the way to fundamentals like intensity, organized defending and even the things you'd expect us to be good at like technique it seems rather pointless to go ballistic over the style or one 18 year old kid. Pedri shouldn't even be forced into a starting position at his age but this is just the shambolic state of the squad because the current alternatives are bigfoot and Puig lmao. Same with Garcia, he has some glaring weaknesses but again he was an 20 year old on a free transfer who would make an alright squad player worth trying out but the way bigger problem is that the players in prime age that should be ahead of him (Lenglet, no-knee-Umtiti) just suck.

How to create a better team, unrelated to Barca DNA when Barca DNA is connected both with the president, owners, fans and media.

Defense?
Our new signing is a Barca DNA boy Eric Garcia who is afraid of the ball.
Let's keep him for the next 10 years because he is "our local kid".
Garcia is a not a footballer for the modern era, for the top level of football.
Let's move further: our RB:
Roberto, Barca DNA, somewhat scared player who is a Jack of all trades, master of none.
Okish at passing, shit at everything else. But he is a local guy, let's keep him forever.
Dest, meh, short and weak. A perfect for us.
Alba: this guy is a two trick pony with only assets are his pace and his signature move when he goes into the attack, only to produce absolutely nothing. Another crying, meh local boy.

Let's move to midfield.
Do I even need to waste any words on Busquets? I don't.
What is the future?
The master of hide and seek Pedri, who can play only at Barca and at Lucho's team who has some weird agenda against Madrid and he pushes only Catalan players.
Puig, lol? Do I need to comment? We will get far with that one.
What is left? Okish, but another 173cm tall (or short?) Barca DNA midfielder Gavi.
Fati who might be injured/ruined forever.
Not too fast, not too strong 173 cm Yusuf Demir (lol).

Now, honestly, what exactly is our future?
We are going in circles all the time.
Every new kid looks like a cloned (but weaker version) of former players.

How can you move forward with Eric, Dest, Pedri, Puig, Gavi, Demir and similar?
How can you play any sort of different football with those guys?
Those guys, fans, media and coaches have coded deep in their brains and blood a type of a slow, balldwelling possession football where these outdated, meh, short midfielders dwell on the ball in the middle and then try to pass to Messi.
But Messi is not here anymore, so all what is left is some weaker copy of our football without the main ingredients like Messi, Xavi or Iniesta.

Frenkie can't play our football.
Cou also likes more chaotic football.
Dembele needs chaos to thrive.

So, we have a few players who need a faster and chaotic football.
And then we have our good old core in Eric, Pedri, Puig, Busi, Demir, Gavi and similar who can play in only one way: in a budget version of a famous Barca's way.

So, our team is basically a mix:
1. of budget Barca DNA players of Uefa cup level
2. paired with a few guys who don't fit our football at all (Frenkie, Cou, Dembele)

And then you can hire either a coach:
1. who will try to preserve our mighty DNA and stick to a slow, balldwelling possession football with this budget midfielders
2. or hire a new guy who will try something new, but then 50% of fans will cry, whine and burn their 2008-2012 shirts, posters and living room sacred places devoted to memorabilia from that era

So, what is our future?
=> watching Pedri, Gavi and Eric playing a budget version of Pep's era without having Messi in a team and asking ourselves where did it go wrong and why can't we have our good old Barca back?

Maybe because the good old Barca worked ONLY and ONLY and ONLY with Xavi and Messi and it will work never again?

 

[mc_lovin]

I think it's clueless to criticize the midfield too much yesterday (well, apart from Busquets, who looks well off pace). Frenkie and Pedri created some good breaks, and maybe we even could have scored. But you can't play conservative with no threat in behind. Others already pointed this out, but Bayern just pressed us into oblivion from the half way line. Put Xavi in there and he would look ordinary as well. We badly need Ansu and Dembele back.

And I will never understand how 'Barca DNA' is the problem. I want our midfield to be technical, and not mere brutes, who get run into the ground and win like 2 titles in 10 years (like current Liverpool). We are closer to Bayern's midfield anyway (Frenkie and Goretzka are both quite physical/fast and Kimmich wouldn't be out of line as 'Barca DNA').

Historically we were always best when we had fast forwards/inverted wingers (Pedro, Villa, Messi, Neymar, Ronaldinho...). I don't expect us to constantly have generational talents there, but two Pedro's would be fine as well. If we still look sterile then I would start to look at our midfielders.

 

[akaranzo]

That's the same what Brazilian fans are saying.
They'll probably win the next world cup around 2158 with their style of football.

Just a question, would you stick to "our football" even if we would lose for 20-30 years in a row?

Let me guess, the answer is: no! We can't lose for 20 years. We are losing due to bad coaches. If we would get the right coach, we would fly again, because IF EXECUTED PROPERLY nothing can stop the type of a divine, eternal football from 2008-2012. It will work even 500 years from now because that is the best type of football ever invented in a football's history

If anything, thanks for the laugh in the early morning, mate

Evertyhing in life is always changing and evolving.
Brazil was the best 50 years ago.
Teams played with a sweeper 40-60 years ago.
Italian Catanaccio was awesome 30-40 years ago.
442 was awesome 20 years ago.
Gks didn't need to play with feet until 10 years ago.
Short, weak, technical midfielders used to make rondos and win everything 10-15 years ago.
None of these things from above will return into a fashion ever again.

I would. The way we play is always more important than results to me. Of course things evolve and change, but it's possible to change things in small ways, without completely changing your style to be like whatever is successful in the current moment for other teams. Pep with Man City is the perfect example - is it different than Pep's Barca? Absolutely, but it still has the same central style and mentality to it. That's what we need to keep, It makes us who we are. Otherwise we'll actually be the next Arsenal.

 

[MTL_Barca]

How to create a better team, unrelated to Barca DNA when Barca DNA is connected both with the president, owners, fans and media.

Defense?
Our new signing is a Barca DNA boy Eric Garcia who is afraid of the ball.
Let's keep him for the next 10 years because he is "our local kid".
Garcia is a not a footballer for the modern era, for the top level of football.
Let's move further: our RB:
Roberto, Barca DNA, somewhat scared player who is a Jack of all trades, master of none.
Okish at passing, shit at everything else. But he is a local guy, let's keep him forever.
Dest, meh, short and weak. A perfect for us.
Alba: this guy is a two trick pony with only assets are his pace and his signature move when he goes into the attack, only to produce absolutely nothing. Another crying, meh local boy.

Let's move to midfield.
Do I even need to waste any words on Busquets? I don't.
What is the future?
The master of hide and seek Pedri, who can play only at Barca and at Lucho's team who has some weird agenda against Madrid and he pushes only Catalan players.
Puig, lol? Do I need to comment? We will get far with that one.
What is left? Okish, but another 173cm tall (or short?) Barca DNA midfielder Gavi.
Fati who might be injured/ruined forever.
Not too fast, not too strong 173 cm Yusuf Demir (lol).

Now, honestly, what exactly is our future?
We are going in circles all the time.
Every new kid looks like a cloned (but weaker version) of former players.

How can you move forward with Eric, Dest, Pedri, Puig, Gavi, Demir and similar?
How can you play any sort of different football with those guys?
Those guys, fans, media and coaches have coded deep in their brains and blood a type of a slow, balldwelling possession football where these outdated, meh, short midfielders dwell on the ball in the middle and then try to pass to Messi.
But Messi is not here anymore, so all what is left is some weaker copy of our football without the main ingredients like Messi, Xavi or Iniesta.

Frenkie can't play our football.
Cou also likes more chaotic football.
Dembele needs chaos to thrive.

So, we have a few players who need a faster and chaotic football.
And then we have our good old core in Eric, Pedri, Puig, Busi, Demir, Gavi and similar who can play in only one way: in a budget version of a famous Barca's way.

So, our team is basically a mix:
1. of budget Barca DNA players of Uefa cup level
2. paired with a few guys who don't fit our football at all (Frenkie, Cou, Dembele)

And then you can hire either a coach:
1. who will try to preserve our mighty DNA and stick to a slow, balldwelling possession football with this budget midfielders
2. or hire a new guy who will try something new, but then 50% of fans will cry, whine and burn their 2008-2012 shirts, posters and living room sacred places devoted to memorabilia from that era

So, what is our future?
=> watching Pedri, Gavi and Eric playing a budget version of Pep's era without having Messi in a team and asking ourselves where did it go wrong and why can't we have our good old Barca back?

Maybe because the good old Barca worked ONLY and ONLY and ONLY with Xavi and Messi and it will work never again?

Well but what's the issue here, the "Barca DNA" or simply quality of the player? Roberto just isn't a good RB. He is bad now, he was bad 3 years ago, and he would've even been lackluster for Peps Barca or 2010-2012 Spain. Alves was 1000x better suited for our style than Roberto as RB.

There is style on the one side and there is execution/quality on the other. If players are picked on the basis of politics/nationality that's it's own issue and has nothing to do with the style itself. That's just a mistake by the sporting staff. Like if Laporta thinks paying 70M for Olmo is a good idea simply because of "Barca DNA", is it really because of our style or is it just a poor decision? Also regarding RB, both Emerson and Dest aren't similar to Roberto in any way so it's not even like the club was aiming for this, the signings just didn't work out great so far.

I just don't buy into this idea of blaming a playstyle first, when the execution is so lacking. It would be a different story if we would play perfect possession football, fast passing high up the pitch etc. but simply lose due to inferior strength/height. THEN it would be time to question the approach, even though i still think it doesn't always have to be a radical change.

This whole picture of our "style" being locked to be a copy of Peps team doesn't hold up for me. I mean just compare 90s Ajax or Barca to it and it's way different. 2006 was different. Even in Peps time here it changed. Spain didn't always play the same. Pep at Bayern and now City plays slightly different as well. Ajax with their great CL run portrayed the style better than anything Barca showed in years. So there is always the possibility to evolve, if it's done well with the right players.

Just abandoning our trademark style alone wouldn't get us anything so it shouldn't be the center point of the discussion in my opinion. We haven't properly executed anything close to "Barca DNA" football in forever. It's supposed to be quick, pass-move, high intensity pressing etc that all works perfectly fine within the boundaries of our supposed style. Work on the execution first, then think about adapting to opponents.

We just have to find our lane, it doesn't have to be an exact copy of 2011. Just playing slightly different than others really isn't that crazy of a concept, it gets blown way out of proportion in my opinion.

 

[BBZ8800]

Historically we were always best when we had fast forwards/inverted wingers (Pedro, Villa, Messi, Neymar, Ronaldinho...). I don't expect us to constantly have generational talents there, but two Pedro's would be fine as well. If we still look sterile then I would start to look at our midfielders.

Historically, apart from 1992 when we won with lucky Koeman's freekick and after surviving KO in quarterfinals with a lucky goal in the 90th minute of a 2nd leg, did our team ever worked WITHOUT Xavi and Messi?
In 2006 we won with Ronaldinho, who is probably the 3rd best player in the last 20 years.
Apart from that, all of our success was Messi-Xavi-Iniesta.

Pedro, Villa and inverted wingers? Do you think that they would win trophies without Messi-Xavi and with Pedri and Gavi behind them?

Further, it feels as too many of you don't see a bigger picture and you only see football and technical skills.
Here is why:
1. in 2008, WHO played TikiTaka type of football besides us? No one, except shitty Arsenal, but they were always Uefa cup level of a team.
Yet today, a lot of teams are copiyng us and they are playing some sort of Barca's 2008-2012 football paired with more running, physique and crosses, like for example: Bayern, City and top EPL teams.
So, in terms of TikiTaka, back then we used to terorize the world with that style and other teams played "normal" football.
While today, everyone took the best parts of our football.

2. pressing?
Back then, which teams were pressing like mad?
Only EPL teams to some extent, but they pressed in a different way than today.
And then Pep invented this new gen of pressing and we started to terorize the world.
No one knew how to escape that press and no one knew how to apply that type of press towards us.
But, fast forward 5 0r 10 years later:
1) and teams slowly figured out how to outsmart our press and how to keep the ball and get it out of their half
2) not only that, majority of teams took our pressing ideas, started to use it or even raised it to a higher level like Klopp and EPL teams

People often say on this forum: we don't move, pass or press like in 2009, lol.
That's because:
1) we introduced some of those things in that moment and everyone was surprised
2) and on top of that, we had Mr TikiTaka himself Xavi, paired with a GOAT Messi who raised that newly invented style to insane levels with his individual skills

Now, fast forward 10 years:
1) we don't have Messi, Xavi or Iniesta, we have budget Barca DNA midfielders
2) we can't terorize the world with our passing like in 2009, because: 1) we don't have as good players as back then plus teams are not surprised with our tactics anymore
3) we can't press like in 2009, because: 1) other teams have figured out how to escape from our press and they started to apply the same press to us 2) plus they raised pressing and running to a whole new level with players who have stamina and physique like robots, unlike in 2009

3) in terms of players, as explained: we had Messi, Xavi, Iniesta. Today we have Pedri, Puig, Gavi and Demir.

4) we had Messi. Today we have Luuk, I am your father, De Jong and Braithwaite

5) in 2009, Bayern was shit, Italian teams didn't play due to calciopoli scandal and bankruptcy, EPL wasn't filled with oil money and lucrative Tv deals and Psg barely existed.
So, winning in 2009 was like playing against Real, Arsenal and Porto while today we have to play against 10 teams who are filthy rich, who stole our ideas and who are filled with 185cm tall robots who can run 12km per match

And then, when you sum it all, 90% of our fans are still confused and don't understand: why we suck, why we can't move, press or pas like back then and why everything feels wrong?
And then we blame Valverde, Koeman, Rakitic, Vidal, Griezmann.
Yet, whatever we do, whoever we hire as a coach, and whoever we sell (from players) = we suck equally and nothing works for us on the highest level.

What a shock

 

[BBZ8800]

I would. The way we play is always more important than results to me. Of course things evolve and change, but it's possible to change things in small ways, without completely changing your style to be like whatever is successful in the current moment for other teams. Pep with Man City is the perfect example - is it different than Pep's Barca? Absolutely, but it still has the same central style and mentality to it. That's what we need to keep, It makes us who we are. Otherwise we'll actually be the next Arsenal.

But Pep is not winning Cls with the most expensive squad out there, with the best coach and with supposedly the divine playing style.

Why on Earth should we follow what Pep is doing?
Is our goal to spend billions and not winning anything except domestic competition?
We could have kept Valverde for that type of achievements.

 

[BBZ8800]

We haven't properly executed anything close to "Barca DNA" football in forever. It's supposed to be quick, pass-move, high intensity pressing etc that all works perfectly fine within the boundaries of our supposed style. Work on the execution first, then think about adapting to opponents.

Read my post after your reply.
1. is it possible to play fast quick and move AS SUCCESSFULLY as in 2009? I don't think so.
Back then it was something new and surprising to opponents.
Today everyone is using it.
2. pressing? The same.
We introduced the new trick, everyone were shocked, today everyone is using it, even better than back then.
3. and: Barca DNA where you mention player's quality.
I asked a lot of times before?
1) is Barca DNA THAT GOOD and our only problem is a quality of good players for that style?
2) or Barca DNA is not THAT GOOD and it went on top only when we had once in a lifetime: Mr TikiTaka himself Xavi, GOAT Messi, one of the best ever Iniesta and the best RB ever Alves?
The same is with Spain, they haven't won anything since iirc 1968 (Euros) and then they went on top with Xavi-Iniesta.
As soon as Xavi declined, Spain (and Barca) also declined.

Now: if Spanish football is so eternally good, how come that they haven't won anything for 40 years in a row before Xavi and how come that they again dropped into mediocricy when Xavi retired?
So, is it the system or the players?
And if that system is meh (except when you have the best players in the world), why are we chasing shadows of that system with budget players like Pedri and friends?

About Barca DNA: Cruijff was here as a player in 70s.
Rinus Michels was our coach in late 70s, who led Holland to WC final in 1974 and who won their only title in 1988 on Euros with Gullit, Van Basten and Rijkaard.
So, since 70s we are connected with Holland and Holland-Barca DNA-total football.
And during almost 45-50 years, how many world class Barca DNA players have we produced?
Since 1976 to 2021, our only CL title WITHOUT Messi, Xavi or Iniesta in a team was in 1992.

So, my point is: it seems that when we talk about Barca DNA, people think about Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets = as required level for our football and success.
But Messi was the best player ever.
Xavi was our best midfielder ever.
Iniesta probably the 2nd best ever.
And all of them played together in the same team paired with Busi, and best RB ever Alves.

So: did we win because of:
1) mighty Barca DNA
2) or because of the best players ever (paired with the right coach and some revolutionary ideas, of course)

And then, over and over, you have people saying: we don't move or press like we used to.
1) so, we don't pass like in the days of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi? Cool. We won't pass that way ever again, not even close.
2) we don't press? As explained, it was a revolutionary thing in 2009. It is not revolutionary anymore and it lost it's power.

I seriously don't get it.
What are we chasing?
It seems that we are remembering Messi, Xavi and Iniesta and then we are saying: we want that style/success/level with different players.
But is it possible at all?
Father Pep can't come even close to that level at Bayern and City, even though he had all the knowledge and money in the world.
How will we come close to those levels without Pep and without once-in-a-lifetime generation?
Oh, and without any money for new Messi/Ronnie since we are completely broke.

It seems that we will have a decade of Koeman/Valverde and budget players and people wondering why can't we go back to a good old days.

One more time, I am seriously shocked how people don't understand that part and don't see that it is impossible to get anywhere close to what happened in 2009.

 

[mc_lovin]

But Pep is not winning Cls with the most expensive squad out there, with the best coach and with supposedly the divine playing style.

Why on Earth should we follow what Pep is doing?
Is our goal to spend billions and not winning anything except domestic competition?
We could have kept Valverde for that type of achievements.

I want us precisely to do what Pep is doing, but with three real forwards. Pretty much the 2009-2011 blueprint.

 

[JamDav1982]

The best Barca sides have always been the best counter attacking teams in the world.

Peps Barca in 2009 were and in 2011.

It is wrong to make out success at that time was built on endless passing. It was an element of the game to keep control when required but when counter attacking was on Barca did it and were the best at it in those years as were in 2015.

Having the counter attacking threat is a massive part of tiki taka as it forces the other team to worry about leaving space and pressing the ball up park as teams are doing to Barca now. It also forces them to sit deeper and allow for Barca to try and win ball high up park when press and nearer to opposition goal.

Tiki Taka was nowhere near as one dimensional and passing for sake of it with slow game the way BBZ makes out.

 

[akaranzo]

But Pep is not winning Cls with the most expensive squad out there, with the best coach and with supposedly the divine playing style.

Why on Earth should we follow what Pep is doing?
Is our goal to spend billions and not winning anything except domestic competition?
We could have kept Valverde for that type of achievements.

So reaching a CL final, a cup final and winning the league in the same season just counts for nothing? There's so many factors that go into every competition, one less mistake from Zinchenko in the final and Pep would've won the CL. The fact is that his style still works, he wouldn't be making it into a CL final or winning the PL if it didn't. Our goal is to try and achieve good results while keeping our identity as the attacking, possession-based team. I'd rather us lose for 20 years than play like Tuchel's Chelsea does.

 

[JamDav1982]

Peps style absolutely works and is constantly changing his approach anyway.

BBZ comes out with same ignorant shit every year and claims they have been worked out and style failing after a few bad results in league.. then by end of season changes it to they failed if dont win CL.

Ask him to pick team with the best approach and favs for CL and he cant ever get it right anyway so works both ways.

 

[vegitot]

So reaching a CL final, a cup final and winning the league in the same season just counts for nothing? There's so many factors that go into every competition, one less mistake from Zinchenko in the final and Pep would've won the CL. The fact is that his style still works, he wouldn't be making it into a CL final or winning the PL if it didn't. Our goal is to try and achieve good results while keeping our identity as the attacking, possession-based team. I'd rather us lose for 20 years than play like Tuchel's Chelsea does.

That's why Tuchel beat Pep, three times last season. Not one, but three.

New direction is needed.

 

[vegitot]

BBZ posts so much same things (DNA stuff, Pep style...).

Pep still wins big things with City, no UCL yet but winning EPL is not easy. His style works, just way behind 2009 and 2011 team, and it is different now than before.

Agree that Barca in limbo now, stuck in the past and can't find a new direction. I blame the glory era for that.

But Barca DNA or De Jong or Pedri has nothing to do with game vs Bayern when Koeman decides to play as a mid table team. All out defend without any purpose. How can you expect the midfield do something???

 

[Rory]

I want to see Balde, Pedri and Fati all on the same side of the pitch. Feel like they'd be excellent together

 

[MTL_Barca]

Read my post after your reply.
1. is it possible to play fast quick and move AS SUCCESSFULLY as in 2009? I don't think so.
Back then it was something new and surprising to opponents.
Today everyone is using it.
2. pressing? The same.
We introduced the new trick, everyone were shocked, today everyone is using it, even better than back then.
3. and: Barca DNA where you mention player's quality.
I asked a lot of times before?
1) is Barca DNA THAT GOOD and our only problem is a quality of good players for that style?
2) or Barca DNA is not THAT GOOD and it went on top only when we had once in a lifetime: Mr TikiTaka himself Xavi, GOAT Messi, one of the best ever Iniesta and the best RB ever Alves?
The same is with Spain, they haven't won anything since iirc 1968 (Euros) and then they went on top with Xavi-Iniesta.
As soon as Xavi declined, Spain (and Barca) also declined.

Now: if Spanish football is so eternally good, how come that they haven't won anything for 40 years in a row before Xavi and how come that they again dropped into mediocricy when Xavi retired?
So, is it the system or the players?
And if that system is meh (except when you have the best players in the world), why are we chasing shadows of that system with budget players like Pedri and friends?

About Barca DNA: Cruijff was here as a player in 70s.
Rinus Michels was our coach in late 70s, who led Holland to WC final in 1974 and who won their only title in 1988 on Euros with Gullit, Van Basten and Rijkaard.
So, since 70s we are connected with Holland and Holland-Barca DNA-total football.
And during almost 45-50 years, how many world class Barca DNA players have we produced?
Since 1976 to 2021, our only CL title WITHOUT Messi, Xavi or Iniesta in a team was in 1992.

So, my point is: it seems that when we talk about Barca DNA, people think about Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets = as required level for our football and success.
But Messi was the best player ever.
Xavi was our best midfielder ever.
Iniesta probably the 2nd best ever.
And all of them played together in the same team paired with Busi, and best RB ever Alves.

So: did we win because of:
1) mighty Barca DNA
2) or because of the best players ever (paired with the right coach and some revolutionary ideas, of course)

And then, over and over, you have people saying: we don't move or press like we used to.
1) so, we don't pass like in the days of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi? Cool. We won't pass that way ever again, not even close.
2) we don't press? As explained, it was a revolutionary thing in 2009. It is not revolutionary anymore and it lost it's power.

I seriously don't get it.
What are we chasing?
It seems that we are remembering Messi, Xavi and Iniesta and then we are saying: we want that style/success/level with different players.
But is it possible at all?
Father Pep can't come even close to that level at Bayern and City, even though he had all the knowledge and money in the world.
How will we come close to those levels without Pep and without once-in-a-lifetime generation?
Oh, and without any money for new Messi/Ronnie since we are completely broke.

It seems that we will have a decade of Koeman/Valverde and budget players and people wondering why can't we go back to a good old days.

One more time, I am seriously shocked how people don't understand that part and don't see that it is impossible to get anywhere close to what happened in 2009.

Well we wouldn't be better off playing any other style with our slow, low intensity team. Being quick to react and pass is crucial for both tiki taka type passing and fast transition counter attacks so that's is something that has to be improved either way.

I don't want to comment on everything because it's the same over and over again all the time anyway, but my point is basically that we shouldn't try to draw conclusions from this sort of made up style debate when our execution lacks in every way imaginable.

And i also think this whole topic in general is blown way out of proportion, there is no clear cut way to success and every team has to bring it's own version of any possible style/formation. It's just a variation, not a complete different way of playing football. You can counter attack, you can have a real striker, you don't necessarily have to play with two Eric Garcias as CBs etc. to be in line with the Ajax/Barca approach in my opinion. Our style isn't exactly what Pep did.

I don't think we have to chase anything, and certainly shouldn't aim for a copy of 2011. We just have to build a team that actually works as a unit again, and just because we might value technique/passing higher for possible recruitments that doesn't automatically mean we have to play 90% possession, slow, no threat with 11 dwarfs. It's not so black/white and i certainly hope Laporta isn't thinking just buying a lot of la masia players makes for a good team.

Edit: I also want to add that i think the term Barca DNA is a bit weird anyway, that kinda implies there is something fundamentally different but it really just means having the technical ability and understanding to play the quick pass and move game. Puyol and Abidal weren't perfect for it for example, but could hang in there with the others without issues.