9 - Robert Lewandowski

Maradona37

Maradona37

Well-known member
Also, you cannot really compare stats across eras anyway.

The Serie A of the 80s that Maradona participated in was a highly defensive league, with some of the best defenders of all time. The average number of goals scored back then was much lower than it is now, as the Bosman ruling hadn't yet come into effect and there wasn't such an imbalance between the elite teams and the rest, as there is now.

What Maradona did then is like someone going to Bologna or even a smaller team now, and winning Serie A. I will not be a liar and claim he did it all himself, as Napoli had some other good players, but he was by far the main on-field protagonist in turning them from a decent team into Serie A and UEFA Cup winners (and back then only league champions entered the European Cup, so the UEFA Cup was generally stronger than the Europa League is now).

The guy was an absolute genius. If he was playing now I have no doubt he'd piss all over everybody as he'd be trained to be a more disciplined man and player, and he would be more focused on stats in this era as Messi is (while retaining his magic as Messi has).

@MagIX
 
TemporaryFan

TemporaryFan

Well-known member
Maradona37 said:
That's true.

However, guys like Maradona and Cruyff transcend stats. I know that sounds pretentious but it is true.

Football is a qualitative sport as well as quantitative, maybe even more so. It can't be measured in pure statistics like the 100 metres can because it is a team game, and unlike basketball is not small-sided so is less reliant on stats.

I am not saying Lewy is not one of the best strikers of the last 30 years, maybe even all time. But Maradona is another level entirely. For me (and many others) he's the equal best player of all time. There's no shame in not being near that level.
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Except that our sense of quality is often determined by nothing else but the sense of aesthetics and that's elusive in terms of providing the key to success. It matters only in gymnastics, figure skating or diving.

I am sure that with the advances of technology, more metrics: player attributes and game tactics attributes, will become identified and available, so that football can be encapsulates in some formula, that would provide answers as to why quite often quality is surpassed by "anti-football" tactics.
So we know why we have Germany, not Holland or Poland winning WC 1974. Ugly playing Italians, not the best ever Brazil NT, winning Espana 1982 WC, or Mourinho's Inter taking CL...not to mention such oddities like Greece or Denmark winning Euros.
 
Maradona37

Maradona37

Well-known member
TemporaryFan said:
Except that our sense of quality is often determined by nothing else but the sense of aesthetics and that's elusive in terms of providing the key to success. It matters only in gymnastics, figure skating or diving.

I am sure that with the advances of technology, more metrics: player attributes and game tactics attribute, will become identified and available, so that football can be encapsulates in some formula, that would provide answers as to why quite often quality is surpassed by "anti-football" tactics.
So we have Germany, not Holland or Poland winning WC 1974. Ugly playing Italians, not the best ever Brazil NT, winning Espana 1982 WC, or Mourinho's Inter taking CL...not to mention such oddities like Greece or Denmark winning Euros.
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I get your point but I feel you are leaning too much into statistical data and not allowing for the pure beauty and 'intangible' moments. Maybe I just hold that much more dear than you do. I respect your feelings on the matter, but for me football is a game of beauty and entertainment. For example, West Germany won the 1974 World Cup, but I and many others love the Netherlands team more. And that is not a unique scenario, as quite often in football a losing team is romanticised more than a winning team.

I guess my overall point is that winning is not the be all and end all. Winning is obviously brilliant, but if you cannot do it with style and just about get over the line most of the time, it feels hollow, because you weren't really the best. Though that makes football beautiful too - that you can be a worse team and have worse players, but still win.

I don't really know how you can say aesthetics doesn't matter in football, but we clearly have different belief systems. Either way I respect your view. I am going out soon though as I have some errands to run, so will say goodbye for now as I head in the shower. Peace mate, and talk soon man:)
 
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SebaDzik

Member
Maradona37 said:
You seem a really nice guy but I really am floored when I see mental opinions like this. In multiple facets.
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If you put as much energy into reading, and context, as you put into writing, you could probably notice that my post followed one that suggested Lewa's fanbase are all trolls. I just played along, and even in separation you can tell it's constructed to flare up. You'd save yourself a lot of time as well, so much recommended.

Now, I don't rate any of them in particular order, given different eras, positions and context, and feel hardly qualified to do so, but I also don't think there is such a gulf between the legendary gods of the game and the usual top tier as is often thought. The latter is just an impression though, so idk.

I can say where I rate them, as I tend to mix morals with sports a lot (and probably too much), and I will sooner follow a decent person (let's say Messi, or Müller, to leave Lewandowski out of it) over a blatant, coke fueled cheater. I understand it is not how most people see it, but there is something revolting in seeing talent and flash excuse stuff that would be condemned tenfold, when applied by a middling sportsman. That's just me though, don't pay attention.

Btw...
 
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Maradona37

Maradona37

Well-known member
SebaDzik said:
If you put as much energy into reading, and context, as you put into writing, you could probably notice that my post followed one that suggested Lewa's fanbase are all trolls. I just played along, and even in separation you can tell it's constructed to flare up.

Now, I don't rate any of them in particular order, give different eras, positions and context, and feel hardly qualified to do so, but I also don't think there is such a gulf between the legendary gods of the game and the usual top tier as is often thought. The latter is just an impression though, so idk.

I can say where I rate them, as I tend to mix morals with sports a lot (and probably too much), and I will sooner follow a decent person (let's say Messi, or Müller, to leave Lewandowski out of it) over a blatant, coke fueled cheater. I understand it is not how most people see it, but there is something revolting in seeing talent and flash excuse stuff that would be condemned tenfold, when applied by a middling sportsman. That's just me though, don't pay attention.

Btw...
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Fair enough - I didn't see the context/background to it so I apologise.

I agree by the way - gods of sports get away with stuff because of their talent, that average competitors (relatively speaking) would not. Maradona had a bad personality and did some terrible things (though he was troubled), Cristiano Ronaldo too, yet they get a pass for certain things because of their reputation in the game. Maradona was a magnetic character, but he did a lot of awful things. Lewy is more 'bland' but that isn't a bad thing - it just shows he's more stable and down to earth. I never denied Lewy is likely a very good person (though we can't know for sure as neither of us is in his life). Either way, I acknowledged I was being too hard on Lewy and was losing my mind a bit, and am now being more balanced.
SebaDzik said:
It worked heh
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You seem a good person as I said. You were never on ignore properly. You were just temporarily on it as you were winding me up in the heat of the moment. I have removed you now and with me being more relaxed on Lewy, I expect there to be less heated discussion between you and I.
 
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SebaDzik

Member
Sure just a funny quote, and thanks, I certainly try to.

Good to see you in high spirits, to quote Jane Austen heh

And yes we never know for sure, can only judge what's done in public.
 
Maradona37

Maradona37

Well-known member
SebaDzik said:
Sure just a funny quote, and thanks, I certainly try to.

Good to see you in high spirits, to quote Jane Austen heh

And yes we never know for sure, can only judge what's done in public.
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Thanks.

You're right by the way - I am something of an unstable character. However, I am working on self-improvement, and making real effort/inroads into being less 'choleric' (something ForzaBarca implied I am).

This is just football and really not important. I know that and have said that, yet still sometimes I obsess over stuff. Must be part of my personality. Need to find and more importantly retain a healthy sense of perspective.

I will remain calmer and easy going and let stuff be like water off a duck's back. Like a river over stone.

Hope you are ok tonight. It is 1.42 am here which I think means it is 2.42 am in Poland. Late night for us.
 
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SebaDzik

Member
You're hardly the first to loose it on the internet. Also you can still be right, that Lewandowski will cost Barca etc etc, I hope not but it's always a possibility, especially at 37, that final decline has to happen at some point. The safety net is that Flick will know first tough, and I find it absurd to believe he would sacrifice his and his team's success for Lewandowski's sake.

But yes not worth it, it's not only football but football on the internet, RL relevancy zero.

Yes I'm ok here past the 4am now, thank you. My sleep schedule and biological clock are ruined heh, but it's by my own design - I often sleep early and wake up midnight to make it to the mountains before dawn, or conversely go after work for a quick run up. It's not consistent, and demands lots of coffee and booze to regulate heh, but comes with exceptional rewards too, be it aesthetics, stamina, strength, balance or resilience. Perspective and stability as well btw, especially after the - perceived or real, can never say - near death experiences heh.
 
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Maradona37

Maradona37

Well-known member
Yes, true. Let's hope he doesn't mess it up for Barcelona. I think he's doing fine as it is. I hope Barcelona win everything but there's always a risk some players (whether it is Lewy or others) hit a slump. Plus tiredness can play a part as they have gone flat out this season. I am not a Barca fan but it would still be good to see them win the treble.

Like you say, Lewy has no real relevancy to our lives other than football, so no point in arguing over him or other people. Best to just stay calm.

That sounds good that you get out to the mountains and stuff. I don't drink or anything so cannot relate to that, but glad you are maintaining a positive mindset and feeling serene and good. Sorry to hear about the near death experiences (if real and not perceived) by the way - sounds terrifying, but you are still with us and I am glad of that.
 
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