Andrea Pirlo

khaled_a_d

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
Birdy said:
Pirlo has to first prove he is a proper coach, let alone a good coach.

Pep's success story had the ill effect of inflating people's minds into believing every great former player can be a world-class coach.
In fact only Pep and maybe Zidane (I say maybe because IMO Zidane is hyped after winning 3 CLs whereas his bar is much lower) and very few others have lived up to that standard.
The other great world-class coaches were mediocre players or never played football
Click to expand...

This is myth.
The greatest 2 European players in the 20th century were Beckenbuar and Crujif and both were great coaches.
Most good coaches has played for big clubs, many were stars too.
For example our best coaches were Crujif - best European player in 20th century- and Rijkaard (an all time great) and Pep (was a club symbol as a player, though overall wasn't on same level of his predecessors) and Lucho who had a great career between Barca and RM.

Simeone was great player, Ancelotti played for great teams, Zidane was legend and this trend will continue even further as times goes.
The age of the Mourinho's and Allegri of football is vanishing, and it has nothing to do with Pep
 
tacticvarium

tacticvarium

New member
khaled_a_d said:
This is myth.
The greatest 2 European players in the 20th century were Beckenbuar and Crujif and both were great coaches.
Most good coaches has played for big clubs, many were stars too.
For example our best coaches were Crujif - best European player in 20th century- and Rijkaard (an all time great) and Pep (was a club symbol as a player, though overall wasn't on same level of his predecessors) and Lucho who had a great career between Barca and RM.

Simeone was great player, Ancelotti played for great teams, Zidane was legend and this trend will continue even further as times goes.
The age of the Mourinho's and Allegri of football is vanishing, and it has nothing to do with Pep
Click to expand...

100% True.
There has even been plenty of cases where former great players becoming great coaches before the 70s.
This is why a proper understanding of history is an absolute must for anyone in any field.
So many people spread lies and BS without even knowing the history to justify their personal opinions.
 
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Birdy

Birdy

Senior Member
khaled_a_d said:
This is myth.
The greatest 2 European players in the 20th century were Beckenbuar and Crujif and both were great coaches.
Most good coaches has played for big clubs, many were stars too.
For example our best coaches were Crujif - best European player in 20th century- and Rijkaard (an all time great) and Pep (was a club symbol as a player, though overall wasn't on same level of his predecessors) and Lucho who had a great career between Barca and RM.

Simeone was great player, Ancelotti played for great teams, Zidane was legend and this trend will continue even further as times goes.
The age of the Mourinho's and Allegri of football is vanishing, and it has nothing to do with Pep
Click to expand...

There is no myth, just plain facts...
Maybe I didn't express it accurately: many great world-class coaches have been players, and many of them played for big clubs as you say, but the majority have been either mediocre, or squad players, or even starters for their teams, but most times neither stars nor world-class players.
There are exceptions like Zidane and Cryuff, but this is the rule.

Your examples suffer:
- Cryuff yes, Beckenbauer not quite so. His career as a manager is nothing compared to what he was as a player.
- Rijkaard never succeeded as a manager apart from Barcelona (where many claim that Ten Haag was the mind behind Rijkaard)
- Lucho is still a question mark as a coach. One-time success says nothing and does not make you a great coach, ask Di Mateo about it.
We are talking about world-class coaches that constantly and continuously have proved themselves at different settings on the highest level.
Neither Rijkaard nor Lucho belong there.

Look at world-class coaches the last 10-5 years: Pep, Pochetino, Klopp, Conte, Mourinho, Allegri and if you go further back Ancelotti, Ferguson, Wenger
With the exception of Pep, you have two basic categories:
Some of them played for great sides as you say, but were never world-class (Conte, Ancelotti)
Some of them played for minor sides without a serious career or never played football (Klopp, Mou, Allegri, Fergi, Wenger)

If you go further back and look at world-class coaches 20 yrs ago, the list involves again cases belonging to the two categories above (Van Gaal, Lippi, Hitzfeld)

- Look at top coaches that changed the sport or left a good mark in its history before: like Herrera, Happel, Michels, Shankley, Sacchi, Van Gaal
Which ones were world-class players?

- I don't even mention the ones that are currently young and upcoming and might dominate in the future (like Ten Haag, Tuchel, Nagelsman) because they also confirm the observation

PS: Pep's success had the ill effect I described. It is now assumed that a world-class player, especially a legend of some club, can straight away take the reigns of managing his club, let alone succeed!!

Before Pep, someone like Pirlo could become a coach but would never be given the management of a club like Juventus immediately.
He would have to go through the ranks, manage small clubs, jump to a medium sized club, and finally reach the top level.
 
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khaled_a_d

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
Birdy said:
There is no myth, just plain facts...
Maybe I didn't express it accurately: many great world-class coaches have been players, and many of them played for big clubs as you say, but the majority have been either mediocre, or squad players, or even starters for their teams, but most times neither stars nor world-class players.
There are exceptions like Zidane and Cryuff, but this is the rule.

Your examples suffer:
- Cryuff yes, Beckenbauer not quite so. His career as a manager is nothing compared to what he was as a player.
- Rijkaard never succeeded as a manager apart from Barcelona (where many claim that Ten Haag was the mind behind Rijkaard)
- Lucho is still a question mark as a coach. One-time success says nothing and does not make you a great coach, ask Di Mateo about it.
We are talking about world-class coaches that constantly and continuously have proved themselves at different settings on the highest level.
Neither Rijkaard nor Lucho belong there.

Look at world-class coaches the last 10-5 years: Pep, Pochetino, Klopp, Conte, Mourinho, Allegri and if you go further back Ancelotti, Ferguson, Wenger
With the exception of Pep, you have two basic categories:
Some of them played for great sides as you say, but were never world-class (Conte, Ancelotti)
Some of them played for minor sides without a serious career or never played football (Klopp, Mou, Allegri, Fergi, Wenger)

If you go further back and look at world-class coaches 20 yrs ago, the list involves again cases belonging to the two categories above (Van Gaal, Lippi, Hitzfeld)

- Look at top coaches that changed the sport or left a good mark in its history before: like Herrera, Happel, Michels, Shankley, Sacchi, Van Gaal
Which ones were world-class players?

- I don't even mention the ones that are currently young and upcoming and might dominate in the future (like Ten Haag, Tuchel, Nagelsman) because they also confirm the observation

PS: Pep's success had the ill effect I described. It is now assumed that a world-class player, especially a legend of some club, can straight away take the reigns of managing his club, let alone succeed!!
Before Pep, someone like Pirlo could become a coach but would never be given the management of a club like Juventus immediately.
He would have to go through the ranks, manage small clubs, jump to a medium sized club, and finally reach the top level.
Click to expand...

The only fact is what you said is a myth.
You don't dictate who is world class coach and who isn't based on personal opinion, to dismiss the likes of Rijkaard (he was great with NT too btw), Lucho (treble winning coach) and Beckenbauer (world cup winner,UEFA Cup winner) to suit your argument is laughable at best. Especially when you list the likes of Pochetino, Conte as world class coach while having an inferior career than them and it isn't even arguable.

Here is a fun fact: Last 10 years CL winners:
Flick: played for Bayern for 5 years, big team player
Klopp: Mediocre player at best
Zidane (3 times): Legend
Lucho: Worldclass player at his time, played for Barca and RM
Ancelotti: Was a player for big clubs
Heynckes: An international player who played for big club (at that era) with 4 league title and one Europ league title
Roberto Di Matteo: Also played in big clubs and was international with Italy NT
Pep:Club Symbol

Only one of 10 last CL title winners was a no body as a player (Klopp)

With leagues it will depends on which leagues, Bayern had coaches with good careers as players, Juve was the opposite during their time after Conte, Liga were mostly dominated by coaches with greater careers in past 5 year, EPL was more balanced.


And here is a more fact: there few dozens of players who reached super star level, few hundreds played for top clubs and few millions who played football just is. There are far more percentage of superstars making it as top coaches than any other categories, and far more players in big clubs than the no bodies too.

And again, the whole " Pep" effect shows lack of history understanding, Pep hiring wasn't a new experience at all, even his mentor Cruyff was hired by one of Europe finest at that time with no prior experience except coaching youth teams. Klinsmann & Van Basten were both hired for NT coach (before such job became retirement homes) with no prior experience, few years before Pep.
And then you claim that over a decade later, Pep is the reason Pirlo is hired? give me a break here. The world doesn't revolve around Barca and its success.

PS: Ten Haag is 50 years old coach, he is older than Pep, he isn't a young coach waiting to dominate the world :lol:. He is doing things Koeman done a decade and half ago too. Nothing exceptional really.
Same with Tuchel, who could very well be in his last top club job unless Bayern Bayern be interested in him, otherwise he will most likely end up in midtable EPL team. He is 47, that is an average age for coaches. At this age coaches aren't young beyond 45, probably considered older at age of 55 or so
 
xXKonan

xXKonan

Senior Member
To be fair to Pirlo, I believe the guy didn't even get to properly manage his first youth games as a coach.

They just flat out gave him the Juventus coaching job like a bunch of idiots thinking the guy can straight up be some sort of Zidane/Pep. But failed to realize Zidane coached Castilla and worked under Carlo and Pep had experience with the B team.
 
M

Morten

Senior Member
xXKonan said:
To be fair to Pirlo, I believe the guy didn't even get to properly manage his first youth games as a coach.

They just flat out gave him the Juventus coaching job like a bunch of idiots thinking the guy can straight up be some sort of Zidane/Pep. But failed to realize Zidane coached Castilla and worked under Carlo and Pep had experience with the B team.
Click to expand...

Yes, Zidane was years in the making, working in a numerous roles over the years(including assistant), before he was appointed coach.
 
khaled_a_d

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
tbf many Juve fans I know think he is showing flashes of properly building the team, that they looked better in the league than their results showed
Against us the missed their defense and CR7, so tough to judge the coach on such game
 
Birdy

Birdy

Senior Member
khaled_a_d said:
The only fact is what you said is a myth.
You don't dictate who is world class coach and who isn't based on personal opinion, to dismiss the likes of Rijkaard (he was great with NT too btw), Lucho (treble winning coach) and Beckenbauer (world cup winner,UEFA Cup winner) to suit your argument is laughable at best. Especially when you list the likes of Pochetino, Conte as world class coach while having an inferior career than them and it isn't even arguable.

Here is a fun fact: Last 10 years CL winners:
Flick: played for Bayern for 5 years, big team player
Klopp: Mediocre player at best
Zidane (3 times): Legend
Lucho: Worldclass player at his time, played for Barca and RM
Ancelotti: Was a player for big clubs
Heynckes: An international player who played for big club (at that era) with 4 league title and one Europ league title
Roberto Di Matteo: Also played in big clubs and was international with Italy NT
Pep:Club Symbol

Only one of 10 last CL title winners was a no body as a player (Klopp)

With leagues it will depends on which leagues, Bayern had coaches with good careers as players, Juve was the opposite during their time after Conte, Liga were mostly dominated by coaches with greater careers in past 5 year, EPL was more balanced.


And here is a more fact: there few dozens of players who reached super star level, few hundreds played for top clubs and few millions who played football just is. There are far more percentage of superstars making it as top coaches than any other categories, and far more players in big clubs than the no bodies too.

And again, the whole " Pep" effect shows lack of history understanding, Pep hiring wasn't a new experience at all, even his mentor Cruyff was hired by one of Europe finest at that time with no prior experience except coaching youth teams. Klinsmann & Van Basten were both hired for NT coach (before such job became retirement homes) with no prior experience, few years before Pep.
And then you claim that over a decade later, Pep is the reason Pirlo is hired? give me a break here. The world doesn't revolve around Barca and its success.

PS: Ten Haag is 50 years old coach, he is older than Pep, he isn't a young coach waiting to dominate the world :lol:. He is doing things Koeman done a decade and half ago too. Nothing exceptional really.
Same with Tuchel, who could very well be in his last top club job unless Bayern Bayern be interested in him, otherwise he will most likely end up in midtable EPL team. He is 47, that is an average age for coaches. At this age coaches aren't young beyond 45, probably considered older at age of 55 or so
Click to expand...

There is no point in going into more depth here, since you play around the few names that work for your argument and at the same time dismiss whole realities (you didn't say a word about coaching legends like Fergie, Wenger, and Mourinho and further back Herrera, Happel, Michels, Sacchi, etc)
You even say Flick was a great player (huh?) to support your point...
You are counting Rijkkard as a world-class coach with only one success (Barca) and many failures. The guy was coaching at Galatasaray right after Barca and then at Saudi Arabia, and stopped coaching at the age of 50. How many world-class coaches do you know that had this trajectory??
Or Beckenbauer who won the World Cup with West Germany, and after that coached only for 3 spare years.

Please, give me a break.
No matter how you twist things, these will never belong to the world-class category of coaches.
And again I am talking about world-classs players becoming world-class coaches. I am not talking about players who just made the top level. Don't try to purposefully distort my argument.

I know it's hard for you to admit that you are wrong, but you are terribly wrong on this.
And you started the whole thing after wanting to defend Pirlo, for whom I said the simple plain thing that Konan also says above: Annieli and his board are flat out irresponsible to say the least for giving him the job, being the most unproven of the unprovens.

PS: Regarding Pep, no that will be you actually who shows lack of historical understanding. The time Pep was hired, hiring of club legends with 0 top level experience was not the norm of the day , and it had not been the norm for many years.
He gave new life to the model of the fresh, inexperienced, but potentially genius coach. And that effect lingered on until this very moment with tons of examples proving that.
As for "The world doesn't revolve around Barca and its success" that's ridiculous to claim. Pep was not just a successful coach at Barca. That could be Lucho, could be Rijkaard or others. Pep changed the sport. Period.
 
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