Barca Transfers and Rumors

[MessiCam]

Hleb - failure
Maxwell - success (great squad player, was bought only for 4 mil €)
Adriano - success (also a great squad player until injuries in his later Barca years destroyed him)
Fabregas - partly success (he did not fit the system but still produced good numbers and was sold without a loss)
Song - failure
Mathieu - success (he was great for one season and was a key part of the team that won a treble)
Rakitic - partly success (was great in the second half of the treble season, and was cheap only 18 mil €, can still be sold for profit)
Douglas - failure (but he was not an experienced player)
Arda - failure
Vidal - partly failure (solid squad player)
Vermaelen - failure (failure only because of his injuries)
Zlatan - failure

If we’re going to consider squad players as success then their hasn’t been many failure in recent years.

 

[Jombi]

I told you 100s times.

Write RIGHT NOW 10 players for whom you think that they are "real deals" currently and that it is a no brainer currently to buy them.
I will name a few, which I guess that you and majority guys consider as no brainers for Barca:
Goretzka, Arthur, Mina, Lemar etc

Let's see what will happen with those guys in 2 years and which level they will reach and whether ANY of them will EVER reach a level of a starter material for Barca (none of them will imo).

One more recent example: 6 Months ago, people were writing: Marlon this, Marlon that.
Another guy with only a few senior matches in his career and people seriously considered him as a future Barca's material.

Of course that his loan spell at Nice is not doing well currently, lol. And NO, that is NOT because we have sent him into a wrong league or into a wrong club.
That is because he was just a risky buy, with a low chance for succeeding. His quality is extremely questionable and his senior football experience and European experience is zero.
If I had write this 6 Months or wrote a bad thing about Marlon or questioned his abilities, 20 guys here would jump, they would write insults etc.
How dare you to question a future gem Marlon, man? You don't know anything about football, man etc

But guys here are jumping on a hype and on a hope that more or less any young players out there will make it here, and as if ANY player out there is better than our current players, lol.
You can read some posts here: buy Goretzka, he will be a starter right away (lol).
Buy Arthur, he will be a starter right away, he is better than all players except Iniesta and Busi (fucking lol). A guy plays in a Brasilian league which was always known for "funky" defending and not too much tactical discipline, pressure etc and you have million seconds to receive the ball, look at your teammates and decide what you will do with it. So, majority of playmakers or attackers from a Brasilian league may look like gems, while they are quite average and they will get exposed easily on European soil with better defenders and with a more tactical discipline.

But hey, let's buy EVERYONE, Mina, Goretzka, Arthur (and even a 100M Lemar who is not fit for our formation), since ALL of them are better than all of our players.
Newsflash: no matter how horrible are Raki, Pique and guys, they are million light years infront of these guys. They know our club, they know our system, they have chemistry, they have experience.
They have more than 30 senior matches in their feet, lol.

But, ignore my posts, feel free to dream about any youngster out there as a no brainer and blame our stupid board for everything.

Here you go, last 2-2 and a half years:
Halil, Denis, Gomes, Paco, Digne, Deulofeu, Marlon (and only Umtiti made it here).
Feel free to add tons of new names (under failed) in a first category.
Some of you will never learn that it is not that easy and simple and how low is a success rate with those young, semiproven players.

Show me were I rated Marlon, Gomes, Paco etc? You cant find that. Its not enough to assess players based on their age or nationality, you have to judge them individually. Thats where you go wrong. You always seem to rate players based on age and where they play, not how they actually perform. Just because one or two people on the board say something positive about some player younger than 25, it does not mean everyone is on board with that and certainly does not mean everyone believes he will be a starter right away. It doesnt work like that. Some people might rate player X, some people disagree and rate player Y. And finally, that does not mean that everyone believes both player X and Y and Z should ALL be signed. And there are no "certain successes". All we have to do is try to find good opportunities in the market and thats not trying to chase starters from Chelsea.

Now you are on a mission about Goretzka, portraying him as some kid with 30 senior matches in his feet and a big risk. The guy would come on a free transfer, has almost 150 senior matches under his belt and has scored 6 goals in 9 matches for the German national team so far this year from his midfield position. 22 years old. How is that such a bad transfer? Not proven enough? He offers value in the market, it would have been worth taking that chance. We cant simply try to chase Eden Hazard or David Silva. Or Verratti (but he hasnt won CL or the English or Spanish league so he is out I guess). Your criteria for signing players is absolutely unrealistic. We would hardly sign any players with your criteria. Not even Luis Suarez. You were already against Neymar, Ter Stegen and Umtiti of course. Same with Gabriel Jesus right? From the bad Brazilian league. But once Gabriel Jesus wins several league titles with City, we should try to sign him?

Who do you actually want to sign? The Vidals, Ibras and Arda Turans of the world?

 

[Zincubus]

Couthino is captain tonight which is ominous..
He's also scored twice in the first 14 minutes !!

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Good luck getting Coutinho from Liverpool..

 

[Zincubus]

Amazing performance plus three goals .

Hope there's a clip somewhere showing his best bits tonight .

Some of the passes were sublime!

 

[BBZ8800]

To add to my earlier post. I couldn’t type what I wanted to because I had to sort out some rather urgent stuff. BBZ8800 keeps harping on about how these young players turn out to be failures but I am going to call him out again for someone who claims that have watched Barcelona for a long period of time.

Does anyone here remember Iniesta and Xavi’s early seasons? Those prior to the 2008/09 season? They were continually overrun by strong opposition, Deco included, but most of all Rijkaard stuck with them. Iniesta made plenty substitute appearances and was played in various midfield and attack positions you’d be excused for thinking he was a prostitute... It was only in the 2008/09 season that everything started to click. It took these young players schooled in the Barça philosophy 4 years to learn their trade at the highest level but it took coaches willing to invest in them that made it happen.

It’s easy to say only 1 out of 10 young players will be successful in the long run without looking at the more inticrate stuff.

The reason I like Denis so much is because I see many of the qualities that the young Iniesta possessed. Only difference is that the recent coaches have been unwilling to give him a serious run like Rijkaard did for Iniesta in particular. They’re too busy keeping their jobs rather than actually doing their jobs.

I usually don't want to be rude on these forums, but man, seriously, WTF are you talking about?

You see "something" in Denis which you have seen in young Iniesta?
Iniesta was winning youth world cups with Spain and he WAS a key player of Spain back then, aged 18-19.
Denis was a squad player in youth teams, at best.

In 2003, at a youth WC cup, which Spain lost in a final, I remember watching Eurosport back then, and commentators were saying all the time: wow, this kid Iniesta this, this kid Iniesta that.
He was a few levels above every other midfielder on that tournament and a few levels above all Spanish midfielders on that tournament.
And then, you have Denis, the sub, wherever he goes, lol.

Further, Denis will be 24 in 30 days.
Do you know when Iniesta was 24?
= when Pep came to Barca in 2008'.
So, a current Denis is as old as Iniesta when Pep came here. Think about that for a little.

Also, about Barca buying young players with a high potentials? Lol. You are writing as if you haven't watched Barca at all.
Here we go, just for fun:
1999, Simao, Portuguese winger, age 19, the next Figo, fee 50M in a current era
2000, Gerard Lopez, age 21, Spanish midfielder from Valencia, a fee 70-100M in a current market
2001, Fabio Rochemback, Brasilian midfielder, age 19, fee 50M in a current era
2001, Saviola, Argentina, age 19, the best young Cf in the world back then. Fee like 150M in a current era. Level of potential: Dembele
2001, Geovanni Deiberson, Brasilian winger/attacker, age 21, fee 100M in a current era
2001, Christanval, French defender, age 22. Fee 50M in a current era
2003, Quaresma, Portuguese winger, age 18. Ranked as a player with more potential than a young CR7 (teammates) back then. A fee 80-100M in a current era. Another "new Figo".
2008, Henrique, Brasilian age 21, money laundering (?)
2008, Caceres, Uruguayan defender, age 21, fee 40-50M in a current era
2009, Keirrison, Brasilian age 20, fee 30-40M in a current era. Money laundering (?)
2015, Halilovic, "the next Messi"
2016, Denis, age 22
2016, Andre Gomes, age 22
2016, Digne, age 22
2017, Marlon, age 21

2011, Alexis, age 22
2013, Neymar, age 21, fee 100+M (in reality, a reported fee was a lie)
2014, Mats, age 22
2016, Umtiti, age 22

Dembele? Yet to be seen what will happen with him.

So, if I counted correctly, we have 4 good buys and 15 fails to average buys with players aged 18-22 in the last 20 years.
Players who made it (Mats, Umtiti) all had at least 22 years when we bought them and A FEW senior seasons as starters in their teams.
Neymar was the best young player in the world, so that is a level of transfer like Dembele.

Basically, Barca NEVER managed to buy a FOREIGN youngster younger than 22 who made it here (except Neymar).
Think about that fact a little.

Then when you'll compare our history of transfers with buying youngsters and players aged 22-26 or players aged 26-30, you'll see that we had a better success rate BOTH with players aged 22-26 and with "older players" aged 26 and older.
Lol, our success rate even with buying 30+ aged players is higher than with buying new Figos and new Maradonas/Messis/Xavis and Iniestas.

A success rate is just insanely poor when you deal with unproven youngsters.
I will troll a little and say: we actually turned into a winning team from 2005-2013, when we actually STOPPED buying unproven youngsters and turned onto buying only proven players aged 23-28.
From 2004-2013, we bought only Henrique, Caceres and Keirrison.
Before 2003, when we sucked, we were playing a roulette game with youngsters all the time.
And lately, we turned to youngsters again (Denis, Gomes, Paco, Digne, Halil, Dembele, Umtiti).

Also, about a part with Xavi and Iniesta.
They would have made it in any club, you guys have to realize that.
It is not as if: if we didn't give chances to Xavi, he would turn into a 2nd division player in some other club, lol.
Samper is NOT bad because we didn't give him chances. He is bad just because he is not good enough. And he is proving that over and over in Barca and in other teams.

Some of you are trying to sell a story: we just have to stick with Samper/Alena/Denis/insert any random player and they will probably turn into a new Xavi-Iniesta, just like we did with Xavi and Iniesta.
It is not fair to compare players with Xavi, but look at how Xavi played in his debut, aged 19.
Miles better than current Denis the Ghost, or Samper who is running like a scared deer all over the field, or even Alena who is losing 10-15 easy balls per match.
Xavi aged 19, younger 1 year than a current Alena:

Xavi aged 20, debuting for an NT, old exactly as a current Alena and 2 years (lol) younger than a current Sergi Samper:

Iniesta was the best player in his Spanish youth teams.
Xavi was playing for an NT team aged 20.
Then you guys are whinning about Samper who can't play in a midtable La Liga teams.
Or Alena, who is neglected both by Lucho, Ernesto and Spanish NT coaches (again, Xavi was already an NT player in his age. Ok, you need to play for your club to get to an NT team, but still...).

In short, our La Masia players are nowhere near Xavi and Iniesta, and they won't "magically" turn into good players ONLY because they will be given more minutes.
About buying foreign youngsters, as explained above, our record with young players is insanely horrible.

But feel free to continue with simplified posts like: stupid board, Goretzka, Lemar, Arthur, virtually everyone are NO BRAINERS and must buys, who will surely turn into starters here and will be better than all players whom we currently have.
Ouch.

 

[wisconsincule]

@BBZ who would you like us to buy?

 

[Aryagorn]

I usually don't want to be rude on these forums, but man, seriously, WTF are you talking about?

You see "something" in Denis which you have seen in young Iniesta?
Iniesta was winning youth world cups with Spain and he WAS a key player of Spain back then, aged 18-19.
Denis was a squad player in youth teams, at best.

In 2003, at a youth WC cup, which Spain lost in a final, I remember watching Eurosport back then, and commentators were saying all the time: wow, this kid Iniesta this, this kid Iniesta that.
He was a few levels above every other midfielder on that tournament and a few levels above all Spanish midfielders on that tournament.
And then, you have Denis, the sub, wherever he goes, lol.

Further, Denis will be 24 in 30 days.
Do you know when Iniesta was 24?
= when Pep came to Barca in 2008'.
So, a current Denis is as old as Iniesta when Pep came here. Think about that for a little.

Also, about Barca buying young players with a high potentials? Lol. You are writing as if you haven't watched Barca at all.
Here we go, just for fun:
1999, Simao, Portuguese winger, age 19, the next Figo, fee 50M in a current era
2000, Gerard Lopez, age 21, Spanish midfielder from Valencia, a fee 70-100M in a current market
2001, Fabio Rochemback, Brasilian midfielder, age 19, fee 50M in a current era
2001, Saviola, Argentina, age 19, the best young Cf in the world back then. Fee like 150M in a current era. Level of potential: Dembele
2001, Geovanni Deiberson, Brasilian winger/attacker, age 21, fee 100M in a current era
2001, Christanval, French defender, age 22. Fee 50M in a current era
2003, Quaresma, Portuguese winger, age 18. Ranked as a player with more potential than a young CR7 (teammates) back then. A fee 80-100M in a current era. Another "new Figo".
2008, Henrique, Brasilian age 21, money laundering (?)
2008, Caceres, Uruguayan defender, age 21, fee 40-50M in a current era
2009, Keirrison, Brasilian age 20, fee 30-40M in a current era. Money laundering (?)
2015, Halilovic, "the next Messi"
2016, Denis, age 22
2016, Andre Gomes, age 22
2016, Digne, age 22
2017, Marlon, age 21

2011, Alexis, age 22
2013, Neymar, age 21, fee 100+M (in reality, a reported fee was a lie)
2014, Mats, age 22
2016, Umtiti, age 22

Dembele? Yet to be seen what will happen with him.

So, if I counted correctly, we have 4 good buys and 15 fails to average buys with players aged 18-22 in the last 20 years.
Players who made it (Mats, Umtiti) all had at least 22 years when we bought them and A FEW senior seasons as starters in their teams.
Neymar was the best young player in the world, so that is a level of transfer like Dembele.

Basically, Barca NEVER managed to buy a FOREIGN youngster younger than 22 who made it here (except Neymar).
Think about that fact a little.

Then when you'll compare our history of transfers with buying youngsters and players aged 22-26 or players aged 26-30, you'll see that we had a better success rate BOTH with players aged 22-26 and with "older players" aged 26 and older.
Lol, our success rate even with buying 30+ aged players is higher than with buying new Figos and new Maradonas/Messis/Xavis and Iniestas.

A success rate is just insanely poor when you deal with unproven youngsters.
I will troll a little and say: we actually turned into a winning team from 2005-2013, when we actually STOPPED buying unproven youngsters and turned onto buying only proven players aged 23-28.
From 2004-2013, we bought only Henrique, Caceres and Keirrison.
Before 2003, when we sucked, we were playing a roulette game with youngsters all the time.
And lately, we turned to youngsters again (Denis, Gomes, Paco, Digne, Halil, Dembele, Umtiti).

Also, about a part with Xavi and Iniesta.
They would have made it in any club, you guys have to realize that.
It is not as if: if we didn't give chances to Xavi, he would turn into a 2nd division player in some other club, lol.
Samper is NOT bad because we didn't give him chances. He is bad just because he is not good enough. And he is proving that over and over in Barca and in other teams.

Some of you are trying to sell a story: we just have to stick with Samper/Alena/Denis/insert any random player and they will probably turn into a new Xavi-Iniesta, just like we did with Xavi and Iniesta.
It is not fair to compare players with Xavi, but look at how Xavi played in his debut, aged 19.
Miles better than current Denis the Ghost, or Samper who is running like a scared deer all over the field, or even Alena who is losing 10-15 easy balls per match.
Xavi aged 19, younger 1 year than a current Alena:

Xavi aged 20, debuting for an NT, old exactly as a current Alena and 2 years (lol) younger than a current Sergi Samper:

Iniesta was the best player in his Spanish youth teams.
Xavi was playing for an NT team aged 20.
Then you guys are whinning about Samper who can't play in a midtable La Liga teams.
Or Alena, who is neglected both by Lucho, Ernesto and Spanish NT coaches (again, Xavi was already an NT player in his age. Ok, you need to play for your club to get to an NT team, but still...).

In short, our La Masia players are nowhere near Xavi and Iniesta, and they won't "magically" turn into good players ONLY because they will be given more minutes.
About buying foreign youngsters, as explained above, our record with young players is insanely horrible.

But feel free to continue with simplified posts like: stupid board, Goretzka, Lemar, Arthur, virtually everyone are NO BRAINERS and must buys, who will surely turn into starters here and will be better than all players whom we currently have.
Ouch.

Well, to be fair, amongst our best foreign-buys ever are - Ronaldo (bought when he was 19) and Figo (bought when he was 22)

Granteed, Ronaldo won the WC by then but Figo did not exactly achieve a lot by then

Why dig the past!? We bought Umtiti when he was 22!

 

[Jombi]

I usually don't want to be rude on these forums, but man, seriously, WTF are you talking about?

You see "something" in Denis which you have seen in young Iniesta?
Iniesta was winning youth world cups with Spain and he WAS a key player of Spain back then, aged 18-19.
Denis was a squad player in youth teams, at best.

In 2003, at a youth WC cup, which Spain lost in a final, I remember watching Eurosport back then, and commentators were saying all the time: wow, this kid Iniesta this, this kid Iniesta that.
He was a few levels above every other midfielder on that tournament and a few levels above all Spanish midfielders on that tournament.
And then, you have Denis, the sub, wherever he goes, lol.

Further, Denis will be 24 in 30 days.
Do you know when Iniesta was 24?
= when Pep came to Barca in 2008'.
So, a current Denis is as old as Iniesta when Pep came here. Think about that for a little.

Also, about Barca buying young players with a high potentials? Lol. You are writing as if you haven't watched Barca at all.
Here we go, just for fun:
1999, Simao, Portuguese winger, age 19, the next Figo, fee 50M in a current era
2000, Gerard Lopez, age 21, Spanish midfielder from Valencia, a fee 70-100M in a current market
2001, Fabio Rochemback, Brasilian midfielder, age 19, fee 50M in a current era
2001, Saviola, Argentina, age 19, the best young Cf in the world back then. Fee like 150M in a current era. Level of potential: Dembele
2001, Geovanni Deiberson, Brasilian winger/attacker, age 21, fee 100M in a current era
2001, Christanval, French defender, age 22. Fee 50M in a current era
2003, Quaresma, Portuguese winger, age 18. Ranked as a player with more potential than a young CR7 (teammates) back then. A fee 80-100M in a current era. Another "new Figo".
2008, Henrique, Brasilian age 21, money laundering (?)
2008, Caceres, Uruguayan defender, age 21, fee 40-50M in a current era
2009, Keirrison, Brasilian age 20, fee 30-40M in a current era. Money laundering (?)
2015, Halilovic, "the next Messi"
2016, Denis, age 22
2016, Andre Gomes, age 22
2016, Digne, age 22
2017, Marlon, age 21

2011, Alexis, age 22
2013, Neymar, age 21, fee 100+M (in reality, a reported fee was a lie)
2014, Mats, age 22
2016, Umtiti, age 22

Dembele? Yet to be seen what will happen with him.

So, if I counted correctly, we have 4 good buys and 15 fails to average buys with players aged 18-22 in the last 20 years.
Players who made it (Mats, Umtiti) all had at least 22 years when we bought them and A FEW senior seasons as starters in their teams.
Neymar was the best young player in the world, so that is a level of transfer like Dembele.

Basically, Barca NEVER managed to buy a FOREIGN youngster younger than 22 who made it here (except Neymar).
Think about that fact a little.

Then when you'll compare our history of transfers with buying youngsters and players aged 22-26 or players aged 26-30, you'll see that we had a better success rate BOTH with players aged 22-26 and with "older players" aged 26 and older.
Lol, our success rate even with buying 30+ aged players is higher than with buying new Figos and new Maradonas/Messis/Xavis and Iniestas.

A success rate is just insanely poor when you deal with unproven youngsters.
I will troll a little and say: we actually turned into a winning team from 2005-2013, when we actually STOPPED buying unproven youngsters and turned onto buying only proven players aged 23-28.
From 2004-2013, we bought only Henrique, Caceres and Keirrison.
Before 2003, when we sucked, we were playing a roulette game with youngsters all the time.
And lately, we turned to youngsters again (Denis, Gomes, Paco, Digne, Halil, Dembele, Umtiti).

Also, about a part with Xavi and Iniesta.
They would have made it in any club, you guys have to realize that.
It is not as if: if we didn't give chances to Xavi, he would turn into a 2nd division player in some other club, lol.
Samper is NOT bad because we didn't give him chances. He is bad just because he is not good enough. And he is proving that over and over in Barca and in other teams.

Some of you are trying to sell a story: we just have to stick with Samper/Alena/Denis/insert any random player and they will probably turn into a new Xavi-Iniesta, just like we did with Xavi and Iniesta.
It is not fair to compare players with Xavi, but look at how Xavi played in his debut, aged 19.
Miles better than current Denis the Ghost, or Samper who is running like a scared deer all over the field, or even Alena who is losing 10-15 easy balls per match.
Xavi aged 19, younger 1 year than a current Alena:

Xavi aged 20, debuting for an NT, old exactly as a current Alena and 2 years (lol) younger than a current Sergi Samper:

Iniesta was the best player in his Spanish youth teams.
Xavi was playing for an NT team aged 20.
Then you guys are whinning about Samper who can't play in a midtable La Liga teams.
Or Alena, who is neglected both by Lucho, Ernesto and Spanish NT coaches (again, Xavi was already an NT player in his age. Ok, you need to play for your club to get to an NT team, but still...).

In short, our La Masia players are nowhere near Xavi and Iniesta, and they won't "magically" turn into good players ONLY because they will be given more minutes.
About buying foreign youngsters, as explained above, our record with young players is insanely horrible.

But feel free to continue with simplified posts like: stupid board, Goretzka, Lemar, Arthur, virtually everyone are NO BRAINERS and must buys, who will surely turn into starters here and will be better than all players whom we currently have.
Ouch.

You are basically lambasting our own board for being so horrible with transfers over the years, and then go on and attack others for criticizing our board. You've attacked a huge amount of our transfers! They are either too young, havent won enough trophies prior to joining us (Cesc, Hleb, Song, Luis Suarez), come from a bad league according to you or something else.

Do you think that perhaps people believe that we should be able to do better? We cant rely on La Masia to provide quality players younger than 25 anymore. We have to find them. Even though we are terrible at signing value in the market, players who actually increase in value and status after joining us, regardless of age.

We simply can not try to chase starters from Chelsea, City and Real Madrid who are 25 years old and have won several trophies. Its totally unrealistic. Even buying players like Ibra, Cesc etc like we did is extremely hard these days. And Coutinho hasnt won anything in England or anything in Europe so he isnt proven enough either if we follow your logic. And when you are also against the signings of Umtiti, Ney, Mbappe, Gabriel Jesus, Ter Stegen etc because they come from "crappy leagues", what are we supposed to do? Chasing Verratti every summer is not a sustainable solution.

 

[MessiCam]

I usually don't want to be rude on these forums, but man, seriously, WTF are you talking about?

You see "something" in Denis which you have seen in young Iniesta?
Iniesta was winning youth world cups with Spain and he WAS a key player of Spain back then, aged 18-19.
Denis was a squad player in youth teams, at best.

In 2003, at a youth WC cup, which Spain lost in a final, I remember watching Eurosport back then, and commentators were saying all the time: wow, this kid Iniesta this, this kid Iniesta that.
He was a few levels above every other midfielder on that tournament and a few levels above all Spanish midfielders on that tournament.
And then, you have Denis, the sub, wherever he goes, lol.

Further, Denis will be 24 in 30 days.
Do you know when Iniesta was 24?
= when Pep came to Barca in 2008'.
So, a current Denis is as old as Iniesta when Pep came here. Think about that for a little.

Also, about Barca buying young players with a high potentials? Lol. You are writing as if you haven't watched Barca at all.
Here we go, just for fun:
1999, Simao, Portuguese winger, age 19, the next Figo, fee 50M in a current era
2000, Gerard Lopez, age 21, Spanish midfielder from Valencia, a fee 70-100M in a current market
2001, Fabio Rochemback, Brasilian midfielder, age 19, fee 50M in a current era
2001, Saviola, Argentina, age 19, the best young Cf in the world back then. Fee like 150M in a current era. Level of potential: Dembele
2001, Geovanni Deiberson, Brasilian winger/attacker, age 21, fee 100M in a current era
2001, Christanval, French defender, age 22. Fee 50M in a current era Failure
2003, Quaresma, Portuguese winger, age 18. Ranked as a player with more potential than a young CR7 (teammates) back then. A fee 80-100M in a current era. Another "new Figo".
2008, Henrique, Brasilian age 21, money laundering (?)
2008, Caceres, Uruguayan defender, age 21, fee 40-50M in a current era
2009, Keirrison, Brasilian age 20, fee 30-40M in a current era. Money laundering (?)
2015, Halilovic, "the next Messi"
2016, Denis, age 22
2016, Andre Gomes, age 22
2016, Digne, age 22
2017, Marlon, age 21
2011, Alexis, age 22
2013, Neymar, age 21, fee 100+M (in reality, a reported fee was a lie)
2014, Mats, age 22
2016, Umtiti, age 22

Dembele? Yet to be seen what will happen with him.

So, if I counted correctly, we have 4 good buys and 15 fails to average buys with players aged 18-22 in the last 20 years.
Players who made it (Mats, Umtiti) all had at least 22 years when we bought them and A FEW senior seasons as starters in their teams.
Neymar was the best young player in the world, so that is a level of transfer like Dembele.

Basically, Barca NEVER managed to buy a FOREIGN youngster younger than 22 who made it here (except Neymar).
Think about that fact a little.

Then when you'll compare our history of transfers with buying youngsters and players aged 22-26 or players aged 26-30, you'll see that we had a better success rate BOTH with players aged 22-26 and with "older players" aged 26 and older.
Lol, our success rate even with buying 30+ aged players is higher than with buying new Figos and new Maradonas/Messis/Xavis and Iniestas.

A success rate is just insanely poor when you deal with unproven youngsters.
I will troll a little and say: we actually turned into a winning team from 2005-2013, when we actually STOPPED buying unproven youngsters and turned onto buying only proven players aged 23-28.
From 2004-2013, we bought only Henrique, Caceres and Keirrison.
Before 2003, when we sucked, we were playing a roulette game with youngsters all the time.
And lately, we turned to youngsters again (Denis, Gomes, Paco, Digne, Halil, Dembele, Umtiti).

Also, about a part with Xavi and Iniesta.
They would have made it in any club, you guys have to realize that.
It is not as if: if we didn't give chances to Xavi, he would turn into a 2nd division player in some other club, lol.
Samper is NOT bad because we didn't give him chances. He is bad just because he is not good enough. And he is proving that over and over in Barca and in other teams.

Some of you are trying to sell a story: we just have to stick with Samper/Alena/Denis/insert any random player and they will probably turn into a new Xavi-Iniesta, just like we did with Xavi and Iniesta.
It is not fair to compare players with Xavi, but look at how Xavi played in his debut, aged 19.
Miles better than current Denis the Ghost, or Samper who is running like a scared deer all over the field, or even Alena who is losing 10-15 easy balls per match.
Xavi aged 19, younger 1 year than a current Alena:

Xavi aged 20, debuting for an NT, old exactly as a current Alena and 2 years (lol) younger than a current Sergi Samper:

Iniesta was the best player in his Spanish youth teams.
Xavi was playing for an NT team aged 20.
Then you guys are whinning about Samper who can't play in a midtable La Liga teams.
Or Alena, who is neglected both by Lucho, Ernesto and Spanish NT coaches (again, Xavi was already an NT player in his age. Ok, you need to play for your club to get to an NT team, but still...).

In short, our La Masia players are nowhere near Xavi and Iniesta, and they won't "magically" turn into good players ONLY because they will be given more minutes.
About buying foreign youngsters, as explained above, our record with young players is insanely horrible.

But feel free to continue with simplified posts like: stupid board, Goretzka, Lemar, Arthur, virtually everyone are NO BRAINERS and must buys, who will surely turn into starters here and will be better than all players whom we currently have.
Ouch.

I'm so glad you responded to my post with your usual drivel about key players etc etc... Played for national team... It means fuckall...

Lets start with Xavi... He was a freak and that's why I steered clear of drawing comparisons with him and rather used Iniesta but for the record Xavi made his debut for Spain at nearly 21 years of age but his next appearance would be a year later after which he was dropped immediately again only to be called up the following year. Don't be disingenuous or economical with the truth. Xavi was also promoted to the Barcelona first team under van Gaal who understood the value of a youth program due to his time at Ajax but only played consistently due to a Pep injury. He was immediately dropped upon Pep's return. He only became a "key player" in 2001/02 season which coincides with his recall to national team. That's 3 years of playing as substitute and as a replacement for injured players. If he had come through under Lucho and Valverde he'd have been tossed just like Alena who like Xavi and Iniesta is a key member of the Spanish U19 youth team (He's the fucking Captain). Don't compare bringing through youth with coaches like van Gaal, Rijkaard and Pep with fucking Lucho and Valverde. Neither of the latter have a sporting plan.

It's also disingenuous of you to post some YouTube clips of his debut performance, although amazing, when those who were watching at the time know that Xavi faced similar issues to the current youngsters. Only difference is Xavi wasn't sent to the bleachers after a poor performance. There were many, many games, especially those against stronger opposition where he battled and so did Iniesta. It's easy to sit and compare ages and say he was doing this then while he was doing nothing... He is a ghost. But like I said everything clicked for Iniesta in 2008/09 season because prior to that, much like Denis, he was passed around like prostitute in various positions... You'd know this if you watched. Was the talent visible? Of course.

You also seem to be of the opinion that we're saying Denis will turn out like Iniesta. We're not. We're saying he possesses many similar qualities.

Now lets move on to your little game...

1999, Simao, Portuguese winger, age 19, the next Figo, fee 50M in a current era - Moved to Benfica to become leading scorer for a few years - broke even on deal
2000, Gerard Lopez, age 21, Spanish midfielder from Valencia, a fee 70-100M in a current market Funny you mention this because he was actually a La Masia product who went to great things at Valencia - Buying him back was a massive failure
2001, Fabio Rochemback, Brasilian midfielder, age 19, fee 50M in a current era Do't even know what happened to him - Failure
2001, Saviola, Argentina, age 19, the best young Cf in the world back then. Fee like 150M in a current era. Level of potential: Dembele This is weird one because his first few seasons were good with us - 20+ goals per season mainly as a squad player then loaned out - I wouldn't consider him a failure, struggled a bit under van Gaal though. He was a failure at Madrid
2001, Geovanni Deiberson, Brasilian winger/attacker, age 21, fee 100M in a current era Probably the biggest failure of the lot - Got into a bidding war with the likes of Juventus. this was crazy stuff
2001, Christanval, French defender, age 22. Fee 50M in a current era Don't even know why he was bought
2003, Quaresma, Portuguese winger, age 18. Ranked as a player with more potential than a young CR7 (teammates) back then. A fee 80-100M in a current era. Another "new Figo". Don't know if I'd consider him a failure as a player because he achieved good things over his career but as far as Barca is concerned he fell out spectacularly with Rijkarrd
2008, Henrique, Brasilian age 21, money laundering (?) This was silly business. Bought and immediately loaned
2008, Caceres, Uruguayan defender, age 21, fee 40-50M in a current era Not a failure as a player, did well for Juventus but it was a stupid buy considering we had Marquez, Puyol and Pique
2009, Keirrison, Brasilian age 20, fee 30-40M in a current era. Money laundering (?) Same as Henrique
2015, Halilovic, "the next Messi" This is much like the Arnaiz signing - Still have a buyback option him
2016, Denis, age 22 Good signing
2016, Andre Gomes, age 22 The less I say about this the better
2016, Digne, age 22 Good signing for the future
2017, Marlon, age 21 Don't like him and I never did

2011, Alexis, age 22 Why is he here? Stunning player
2013, Neymar, age 21, fee 100+M (in reality, a reported fee was a lie) Magnificent player
2014, Mats, age 22 Visionary signing
2016, Umtiti, age 22 Bargain and a stunning player

Now lets get on to your 23 and up signings over the same period just to show you how stupid it is...

2000 - Overmars, age 27, fee 40M then probably Neymar money now. ("Key player" for Netherlands) - Clap hands.
2000 - Petit, age 29, fee 14M then probably 70/80M in today's money. ("Key player" for France and World Cup winner) - Left the very next season - A hearty round of applause for this "National Team key player."
2000 - Alfonso, age 27, fee 16.5M then and about the same as Petit in today's money. (Failure of epic proportions)
2001 - Andersson, age 29, fee 8M probably Paulinho money now. (Can count the amount of appearances on my digits - Massive failure)
2002 - Riquelme , age 24, fee 10M then and about Arthur price in today's money. (Not sure if I should include him because he was a marvelous player that was fucked over by van Gaal)
2004 - Edmilson, age 28, fee 8M probably Paulinho money now. (A bit like Rakitic, good initially but poor further down the line.)
2004 - Belletti, age 27, fee 3.7M about 20/25M in today's money ("Key" Brazil player when signed) - Another round of applause. At least he was cheap!
2004 - Sylvinho, age 28, fee 2M - Signed as a squad player and that is exactly what he was.
2005 - van Bommel, age 28, fee free - ("Key player" for the Netherlands) - Another round of applause he was free though so I will excuse him and he was a good player - Played one season.
2006 - Zambrotta, age 29, fee 14M then for a fucking defender only moving because Juventus got relegated due to scandal ("Key player" for Italy) - Lasted 2 season then sent back to Italy
2006 - Gudjohnsen, age 28, fee 12M then ("Key player" for Iceland) - Stayed 3 season and scored the magnificent amount of 10 goals and then you're audacious enough to criticise Saviola
2007 - Millito, age 26, fee 20M then - Squad player at best
2008 - Hleb, age 27, fee 12M ("Key player" national team) - Another round of applause sir... I'm not even going to comment on this.
2009 - Ibrahimovic, age 27, fee 45M+Eto'o ("Key player" national team ladies and gentleman) - This was perhaps the dumbest thing in recent memory...
2010 - Adriano, age 26, fee 10M - At best a squad player but had decent qualities though.
2011 - Fabregas, age 24, fee 35M - Not sure how I feel about this signing but including this here nonetheless because he was expensive and didn't do much
2012 - Song, age 24, fee 20M ("Key player" for Cameroon) - Another massive failure...
2014 - Rakitic, age 26, fee 18M + Denis loan ("Key player" for Croatia) - You get a special round of applause for this one because he is levels above our other midfielders despite only possibly having the second half of his debut season that was something to write home about. His decline has been spectacular to watch though.
2014 - Mathieu - age 30, fee 20M - LOL
2014- Vermaelen, age 28, fee 18M ("Key player" for Belgium) - Like Mathieu LOOOOOL but you can have a round of applause for this one too
2014 - Douglas, age 24, fee 4M - On loan somewhere... At least he was cheap.
2015 - Vidal, age 25, fee 22M - Identity crisis... defender, midfielder, wing... ???
2015 - Arda, age 28, fee 41M ("Key player" for Turkey) - This is a special one due to his high wages. Silent clap!

 

[Messi983]

One request: can people please stop quote those long BBZ posts multiple times at the same page? Thanks.

 

[BBZ8800]

I'm so glad you responded to my post with your usual drivel about key players etc etc... Played for national team... It means fuckall...

Lets start with Xavi... He was a freak and that's why I steered clear of drawing comparisons with him and rather used Iniesta but for the record Xavi made his debut for Spain at nearly 21 years of age but his next appearance would be a year later after which he was dropped immediately again only to be called up the following year. Don't be disingenuous or economical with the truth. Xavi was also promoted to the Barcelona first team under van Gaal who understood the value of a youth program due to his time at Ajax but only played consistently due to a Pep injury. He was immediately dropped upon Pep's return. He only became a "key player" in 2001/02 season which coincides with his recall to national team. That's 3 years of playing as substitute and as a replacement for injured players. If he had come through under Lucho and Valverde he'd have been tossed just like Alena who like Xavi and Iniesta is a key member of the Spanish U19 youth team (He's the fucking Captain). Don't compare bringing through youth with coaches like van Gaal, Rijkaard and Pep with fucking Lucho and Valverde. Neither of the latter have a sporting plan.

Xavi:
aged 18/19: 26 matches
aged 19/20: 38 matches
aged 20/21: 36 matches
aged 21/22: 52 matches

About Rijkaard playing with youths, people have to realize that we were an absolute shit back then and we needed a fresh start.
In early 2000s, we had an old team with zero motivation, and we weren't winning trophies. Analogy would be: a team full of Luis Suarezs, Rakitics, Ardas and Piques today.
That is how we looked.
Then Rijkaard came and said: enough of that shit, let's start from zero again.
He immediately fired a lot of older players and kept only a few of them. And then he fired even those few whom he kept, after 12 Months.
So, Rijkaard fired these dead wood either right away or after his first season:
1. Gk Bonano, age 33
2. Dr Reiziger, 31
3. Cb Frank De Boer, 33
4. Cb Patrik Andersson, 33
5. Cm Cocu, 34
6. Cf Kluivert, 28
7. winger Overmars, 31
8. Cm Mendieta, 29
9. Cf Dani Garcia, 29
10. Lb Sorin, 27
11. Cm/Cf Lucho, 34

Bad fits:
1. Cam Riquelme, 25
2. Cb Christanval, 25
3. Cm Rochemback, 22

So, you see, Rijkaard didn't actually have "I love La Masia" type of a view.
His view was: our team is shit, we need a fresh start. And instead of keeping a dead wood, he rather opted for world class youngsters (Xavi, Iniesta, Valdes) and average youngsters (Oleguer, Motta).
And he bought 10 new players who won zero titles, and who were mostly youngish and extremely motivated and ready to work hard.

In that sense, I would agree with you IF we would decide to turn the page and start from zero.
But that would mean: sell Rakitic, Luis, Gomes, Arda, Vermaelen, Mascherano, Pique, Paco, Gomes. More or less, everyone who is either old or a bad fit.
In that scenario, it would be okish to buy ONLY De Light, Arthur, Lemar, and play Alena, Samper, Denis, and other players.
We wouldn't expect too much and we would have time to click and to test who is good enough.

But it makes zero sense to have both Messi in his final years, buy Coutinho/Griezmann, keep Rakitic, Pique, Luis and then mix them with Arthur, Lemar, Alena, Denis.
That is 0% sense long term planning.

Further, seriously, what is wrong with you and with your way of debating?
This is why:

Now lets get on to your 23 and up signings over the same period just to show you how stupid it is...

2000 - Overmars, age 27, fee 40M then probably Neymar money now. ("Key player" for Netherlands) - Clap hands.
2000 - Petit, age 29, fee 14M then probably 70/80M in today's money. ("Key player" for France and World Cup winner) - Left the very next season - A hearty round of applause for this "National Team key player."
2000 - Alfonso, age 27, fee 16.5M then and about the same as Petit in today's money. (Failure of epic proportions)
2001 - Andersson, age 29, fee 8M probably Paulinho money now. (Can count the amount of appearances on my digits - Massive failure)
2002 - Riquelme , age 24, fee 10M then and about Arthur price in today's money. (Not sure if I should include him because he was a marvelous player that was fucked over by van Gaal)
2004 - Edmilson, age 28, fee 8M probably Paulinho money now. (A bit like Rakitic, good initially but poor further down the line.)
2004 - Belletti, age 27, fee 3.7M about 20/25M in today's money ("Key" Brazil player when signed) - Another round of applause. At least he was cheap!
2004 - Sylvinho, age 28, fee 2M - Signed as a squad player and that is exactly what he was.
2005 - van Bommel, age 28, fee free - ("Key player" for the Netherlands) - Another round of applause he was free though so I will excuse him and he was a good player - Played one season.
2006 - Zambrotta, age 29, fee 14M then for a fucking defender only moving because Juventus got relegated due to scandal ("Key player" for Italy) - Lasted 2 season then sent back to Italy
2006 - Gudjohnsen, age 28, fee 12M then ("Key player" for Iceland) - Stayed 3 season and scored the magnificent amount of 10 goals and then you're audacious enough to criticise Saviola
2007 - Millito, age 26, fee 20M then - Squad player at best
2008 - Hleb, age 27, fee 12M ("Key player" national team) - Another round of applause sir... I'm not even going to comment on this.
2009 - Ibrahimovic, age 27, fee 45M+Eto'o ("Key player" national team ladies and gentleman) - This was perhaps the dumbest thing in recent memory...
2010 - Adriano, age 26, fee 10M - At best a squad player but had decent qualities though.
2011 - Fabregas, age 24, fee 35M - Not sure how I feel about this signing but including this here nonetheless because he was expensive and didn't do much
2012 - Song, age 24, fee 20M ("Key player" for Cameroon) - Another massive failure...
2014 - Rakitic, age 26, fee 18M + Denis loan ("Key player" for Croatia) - You get a special round of applause for this one because he is levels above our other midfielders despite only possibly having the second half of his debut season that was something to write home about. His decline has been spectacular to watch though.
2014 - Mathieu - age 30, fee 20M - LOL
2014- Vermaelen, age 28, fee 18M ("Key player" for Belgium) - Like Mathieu LOOOOOL but you can have a round of applause for this one too
2014 - Douglas, age 24, fee 4M - On loan somewhere... At least he was cheap.
2015 - Vidal, age 25, fee 22M - Identity crisis... defender, midfielder, wing... ???
2015 - Arda, age 28, fee 41M ("Key player" for Turkey) - This is a special one due to his high wages. Silent clap!

I have wrote EVERY SINGLE transfer of youth players between 1999 and 2017.
And 15 out of 19 were bad.
And now you are writing only some transfers of older players? Wtf?

If you want to reply to my post and compare a success ratio between youngsters and oldies, then you need to write ALL transfers of players aged 23+ in the last 18-20 years and then see how many ended wrong.
In short, you will need transfers of: Etoo, Ronaldinho, Deco, Marquez, Guily, Van Bronckhorst, Larsson, Abidal, Mascherano, Luis, Villa, Henry, Keita, Bravo.
Then you will probably get to a 50:50 ratio of success when we were buying older players compared to a 4 out of 19 good transfers with players aged 22 and younger.

@BBZ who would you like us to buy?

As mentioned above, it depends on which direction would we like to go in the future.
If we want to go all in in the Messi's final 2-3-4 years and if we want to win 1 more CL, then our prime targets should be: Coutinho and/or Griezmann.
And then some random Cbs and similar.

If we have gave up from winning CLs and we decided NOT to buy Coutinho or Griezmann, then we can buy youngsters like Lemar and similar (I am extremely cautious about Arthur from a Brasilian league).
But then, a wise thing would be too sell Arda, Rakitic, Gomes, Luis and all other players and play with Dembele, Lemar, Alena, Paco and all other younger players. Even if that means zero titles.
It is hard to both chase a CL with players like Messi, Coutinho, Griezmann, Dembele and to develop Alena and other guys.

One more thing to remember and to consider: Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol and Valdes were developed while we sucked and when there was no pressure in terms of results.
In 2005, 2006, 2007, when Rijkaard was under pressure to win titles, he didn't play with youngsters anymore (except Messi, of course).

Imo, we should always try to build "generations" of players where a core (5-6-7 players) is of a similar age.
So, if we want to start from zero again, then we should sell all oldies and try to create a core of 5-6-7 players of a similar age, like Dembele, Alena, Lemar, De Light, Arthur, etc.
And give them one year and forget about the results. Then, if at least 3-4 of them will be good, we can buy 2-3 expensive players around them and play with that team for years and expect better results.
But again, you can't have both a team with Luis and Rakitic and Alena, Dembele and Lemar.
Ok, you always need a mixture of some oldies and some youngsters. But what we have is a horrible mix. And imo, we should either stick with grannies until Messi retires or sell all oldies and start from zero.

Imo, it would be insanely stupid to buy Coutinho for 150M and then pair him with young and inexperienced Dembele, Alena, Lemar or Arthur (plus De Light and Semedo in defense).
What is the point of buying Coutinho and having Messi, if these kids will need at least 2-3 years to click, to learn our system, to get some chemistry etc?

So, buying Coutinho and expensive youngsters make zero sense.
Coutinho and a free agent Gortzka is ok.
But Coutinho, 50M De Light, 50M Arthur is suicidal.

We should pick either this or that.
If we'll buy both Cou/Griezz and tons of kids: we won't win shit with that team and yet, we won't develop kids at all since we will be pressured to fight for titles (which we will lost in the end in April/May due to tired oldies and inexperienced kids).

For example, about Arthur.
If we pay him 50M, we need to play him and give him minutes.
But then, he can't play if we have Iniesta, Rakitic, Paulinho, Gomes, Denis, Rafinha, Alena, (Sergi Roberto?) infront of him. Not to mention Coutinho, lol.
So, if we want to develop Alena and/or Arthur, we need to sell: Rakitic, send Iniesta to retirement soon, sell Gomes, Arda, probably Denis, play Roberto as a RB, sell Rafinha.
Even then, we would still have: Busi, Coutinho, Paulinho, Denis, Sergi Roberto, Alena, Arthur.

So, if would sell: Raki, Arda, Gomes, Rafinha, we would still have 6 CMs (if we would buy both Coutinho and Arthur).
Too crowded, too many players, hard to develop anyone, hard to build a chemistry and yet, majority of these players sucks insanely hard.

 

[Giginho75]

stop quote please!

 

[MessiCam]

BBZ... You want me to list all the over 23’s signed over a 20 year period... I can do that but I can tell you now that it’s not 50/50 odds of success, it’s a lot less. Larsson wasn’t a success either he spent basically his whole first season with us injured. That they extended the contract for another year was beyond belief.

So like I said, signing these over 23’s doesn’t guarantee success either and signing only World Class players, which I’d dearly love, is not sustainable as it would cripple the club.

There must be a mixture of both. Which I’ve said eons ago.

 

[JamDav1982]

Could have saved hours of time and just said Barca should be looking to sign good young players and top established players.

There have been successes and failures in both as there has been at all clubs.