Barca Transfers and Rumors

[BBZ8800]

[MENTION=22503]MessiCam[/MENTION]
Man City Shakthar:
De Bruyne: long range
2nd goal: a counter

2nd leg:
Aguero, penalty

Napoli 4:2
1st goal, set piece, Otamendi header
2nd goal, corner, Stones header
3rd goal, Aguero, counter
4th goal, Sterling, counter

Napoli 2:1
Sterling, goal with feet from inside of a box
Jesus, tap in after De Bruyne's low cross

Feyenoord 1:0
Sterling, though ball

Feyenoord 4:0
Stones, header after a corner
Aguero after a low cross
Jesus, tap in
Stones, header after a corner

So, I managed to find all 5 "header" goals from City, which you used as a proof how City is playing crosses, lol.

1. Stones, a header after a corner against Feyenoord 4:0
2. Stones, another header after a corner against Feyenoord 4:0
3. Otamendi, a header after a free kick against Napoli 4:2
4. Stones, a header after a corner against Napoli 4:2
5. Gundogan, a header after a corner against Basel 4:0

So, City scored 5 headers in a CL, and ALL 5 headers were after a corner or a free kick.
4 out of 5 headers were scored by Stones and Otamendi, who are in the box only during set pieces.

Apart from those 5 set pieces goals, NONE of other 15 goals from City was with a header.
So, all other goals were penalties, counters (scored with feet) or low crosses (scored with feet).

Also, from an open play, only one goal from Man City was scored after "a regular cross" when the ball was travelling through the air.
But even then, a goal was scored with a feet, after a cross landed on Bernardo's leg.

So, you said that I am inventing numbers and theories how Pep's City is playing only through the ground.
And then you used only stats, not checking how those goals were actually scored.
And now you can see that City is scoring headers ONLY after corners.
And that all of their crosses are fast actions where a winger plays a low cross and Aguero/Jesus/Sterling tap the ball into the net (with feet) from 1-2 meters from a goal line.

There is nothing wrong with those type of goals.
But at the end of the day, City (the same as Barca) can't do anything against parked buses when you need some crosses.

All in all, a current Barca and a current City still play a copy of Pep's Barca with shortpasses and zero headers.
It worked in 2009-2011, but it won't work in CL's quarters and semis anymore.

 

[MessiCam]

[MENTION=22503]MessiCam[/MENTION]
Man City Shakthar:
De Bruyne: long range
2nd goal: a counter

2nd leg:
Aguero, penalty

Napoli 4:2
1st goal, set piece, Otamendi header
2nd goal, corner, Stones header
3rd goal, Aguero, counter
4th goal, Sterling, counter

Napoli 2:1
Sterling, goal with feet from inside of a box
Jesus, tap in after De Bruyne's low cross

Feyenoord 1:0
Sterling, though ball

Feyenoord 4:0
Stones, header after a corner
Aguero after a low cross
Jesus, tap in
Stones, header after a corner

So, I managed to find all 5 "header" goals from City, which you used as a proof how City is playing crosses, lol.

1. Stones, a header after a corner against Feyenoord 4:0
2. Stones, another header after a corner against Feyenoord 4:0
3. Otamendi, a header after a free kick against Napoli 4:2
4. Stones, a header after a corner against Napoli 4:2
5. Gundogan, a header after a corner against Basel 4:0

So, City scored 5 headers in a CL, and ALL 5 headers were after a corner or a free kick.
4 out of 5 headers were scored by Stones and Otamendi, who are in the box only during set pieces.

Apart from those 5 set pieces goals, NONE of other 15 goals from City was with a header.
So, all other goals were penalties, counters (scored with feet) or low crosses (scored with feet).

Also, from an open play, only one goal from Man City was scored after "a regular cross" when the ball was travelling through the air.
But even then, a goal was scored with a feet, after a cross landed on Bernardo's leg.

So, you said that I am inventing numbers and theories how Pep's City is playing only through the ground.
And then you used only stats, not checking how those goals were actually scored.
And now you can see that City is scoring headers ONLY after corners.
And that all of their crosses are fast actions where a winger plays a low cross and Aguero/Jesus/Sterling tap the ball into the net (with feet) from 1-2 meters from a goal line.

There is nothing wrong with those type of goals.
But at the end of the day, City (the same as Barca) can't do anything against parked buses when you need some crosses.

All in all, a current Barca and a current City still play a copy of Pep's Barca with shortpasses and zero headers.
It worked in 2009-2011, but it won't work in CL's quarters and semis anymore.

Geez. You said they’re one dimensional and can only score in one manner. You’ve just watched all the highlights to prove yourself wrong... Headers, crosses, through balls, counters... They do it all.

And yes, low crosses and cut backs are still crosses.

You’re clutching at straws... First your argument was that a 4-3-3 is useless defensively as against PSG and Juventus and the 4-4-2 was guaranteed to win the Champions League (which you have an unhealthy obsession with). Then it was taller and stronger players... Now it’s Pep’s fault (when he isn’t the one who pioneered the system) due to one dimensional football.

Did you know, prior to this one dimensional football you speak of... Barcelona had ZERO Champions Leagues/European Cups. Since then it’s been 5.

I for the life of me can’t fathom why you’re a Barcelona supporter when you hate their style of play and the type of players they build on. They decided a long time ago that they were going to play football in a certain manner and for the most part have stuck with it... So much so that they’re now the most successful European club in terms of overall trophies. But [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] is pissed off because it’s not Champions League success.

 

[BBZ8800]

Geez. You said they’re one dimensional and can only score in one manner. You’ve just watched all the highlights to prove yourself wrong... Headers, crosses, through balls, counters... They do it all.

And yes, low crosses and cut backs are still crosses.

You’re clutching at straws... First your argument was that a 4-3-3 is useless defensively as against PSG and Juventus and the 4-4-2 was guaranteed to win the Champions League (which you have an unhealthy obsession with). Then it was taller and stronger players... Now it’s Pep’s fault (when he isn’t the one who pioneered the system) due to one dimensional football.

Did you know, prior to this one dimensional football you speak of... Barcelona had ZERO Champions Leagues/European Cups. Since then it’s been 5.

I for the life of me can’t fathom why you’re a Barcelona supporter when you hate their style of play and the type of players they build on. They decided a long time ago that they were going to play football in a certain manner and for the most part have stuck with it... So much so that they’re now the most successful European club in terms of overall trophies. But [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] is pissed off because it’s not Champions League success.

This is the wrong place for this discussion, so this is my last post about this (in this topic).
Ok, I was wrong when I said that Pep's City is one-dimensional.
They can play possession, like Barca. But they can also play counters. And they can score after corners.
Yet, they can't cross and score headers from an open play, like Real or Bayern.

Barca, on the other hand: can play only possession.
We can't play counters, can't score after corners and can't score headers after crosses from an open play.

On the other hand, RM (who play a final tomorrow) can score from a possession play, counters, free kicks and crosses+headers.

I won't even enter into a childish discussion: why are you Barca's fan and this is our style...
Before Pep, under Rijkaard, we were able to score from possession, counters, corners and after crosses.

So, so called Barca's style is usually NOT Barca's style, but Pep's style.
And yes, I don't like Pep's style because it brought 3 years of success and now we'll have 20-30-50 years of misery trying to replicate that style over and over (without moving forward and evolving).

 

[Neeraj]

If we get Greizman, Lenglet, Thiago and Arthur(in the winter), along with a few youth players to send out to loan/B team - This would be a good transfer window, and considering Arthur and Greizman are pretty much looking like done deals - it's not that impossible to see this happening.

But it's this board, so there's that.

 

[MessiCam]

Before Pep, under Rijkaard, we were able to score from possession, counters, corners and after crosses.

I wish you wouldn’t post stuff like this. Rijkaard’s system like Guardiola’s was built on possession and pressing just less disciplined than Guardiola’s. I’d even venture to say that Rijkaard’s system allowed for more individual flair in the final third. Aerial crosses into the box were never a big part of the tactics.

So, so called Barca's style is usually NOT Barca's style, but Pep's style.
And yes, I don't like Pep's style because it brought 3 years of success and now we'll have 20-30-50 years of misery trying to replicate that style over and over (without moving forward and evolving).

What are you talking about? Every manager that has found European success at Barça (Cruyff, Rijkaard, Guardiola, Enrique) have employed the very same principles just adapted to individual preferences.

You’re also very wrong if you think it was only 3 years of success. Barça have won 7 of the last 10 La Ligas. Success is not only measured by winning the Champions League which is fashionable these days. It is still only a cup competition.

You’re all over the place... First it was a 3 man midfield, then it was physicality and now it is Guardiola’s fault. I mean how can it be Guardiola’s fault when bums like Valverde are hired (whom you support for his bland type and tactics and who hasn’t brought European success after you were convinced he would with a 4 man midfield). You’re trying to isolate issues as a form of proof when it’s much more systemic than that to begin with.

 

[Vilarrubi]

Before Pep, under Rijkaard, we were able to score from possession, counters, corners and after crosses.

Not sure what you’re getting with the Rijkaard thing.. he won 5 trophies in 5 years here with a MUCH WORSE Real Madrid team to contend with.

Pep won 14 in 4 years.. with a Mourinho led Madrid. Our personnel are wrong not our style.

 

[MessiCam]

Not sure what you’re getting with the Rijkaard thing.. he won 5 trophies in 5 years here with a MUCH WORSE Real Madrid team to contend with.

Pep won 14 in 4 years.. with a Mourinho led Madrid. Our personnel are wrong not our style.

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] wants Barça to play like Madrid and Bayern. He wants tall strikers and physical midfielders too.

He has even gone as far as saying Messi is a hindrance due to him tactically conditioning the team when the real problem is not Messi conditioning the team but rather 2 other players doing the same.

When you have a player like Messi you build for and towards him.

 

[BBZ8800]

I wish you wouldn’t post stuff like this. Rijkaard’s system like Guardiola’s was built on possession and pressing just less disciplined than Guardiola’s. I’d even venture to say that Rijkaard’s system allowed for more individual flair in the final third. Aerial crosses into the box were never a big part of the tactics.

Of course they are similar, but Pep turned into extremes, this is why I don't like Pep's style.
For example:
Barca Pre-Pep and during Pep:
1. we always had technical players, but pre-Pep we had some muscles and height.
In midfield, for example: Lucho, Cocu, Edmilson, Motta, Van Bommel.
During Pep: he "killed" all muscles and turned only into players of Iniesta's type.
So, do you see a change?
From let's say, before Pep, we had 70% of technical midfielders and 30% with more strength, height and muscles, we turned into=100% technique, 0% muscles.

2. then in attack.
We were always a team which relied on shortpassing, technique, passing around the box.
But before Pep, it was again (my estimation): 70% of shortpasses and through balls, and 30% of some long balls and crosses.
Then, Pep "killed" all long balls and crosses and from a mixed team in attack, he turned into=99% shortpasses and 1% everything else.
So, again, we were always a shortpassing team, but we had some other options also. And then Pep went into extremes.
It worked for some time, but now we have that burden on our shoulders.

3. also, type of attackers.
Remember our attackers pre-Pep: Rivaldo, Kluivert, Etoo, Ronaldinho, Giovanni (the tall guy, not the winger), and even guys like Gudjohnsen, Larsson etc.
So, we always had technical attackers, but we also usually had 1-2 guys who had both technique and pace, but also strength and height.
So, again, we relied mostly on shortpasses, technique, pace and "normal finishing with feet", but when needed, we could have used some crosses and long balls for headers inside of a box.

What did Pep do?
He again "killed" all taller Cfs and turned into a team of Messi, Bojan, Alexis, Pedro and similar.
Look at his City: Jesus, Sane, Sterling, Aguero, Silva etc.
So, he again turned from Cfs who were using feet 70-80% of time and head 20-30% to a team with: 99% feet and 1% headers.

So, again, we were never a team with tons of crosses, but we HAD that option.
Then Pep killed every single option not called: possession football with short players.

What are you talking about? Every manager that has found European success at Barça (Cruyff, Rijkaard, Guardiola, Enrique) have employed the very same principles just adapted to individual preferences.

You’re also very wrong if you think it was only 3 years of success. Barça have won 7 of the last 10 La Ligas. Success is not only measured by winning the Champions League which is fashionable these days. It is still only a cup competition.

You’re all over the place... First it was a 3 man midfield, then it was physicality and now it is Guardiola’s fault. I mean how can it be Guardiola’s fault when bums like Valverde are hired (whom you support for his bland type and tactics and who hasn’t brought European success after you were convinced he would with a 4 man midfield). You’re trying to isolate issues as a form of proof when it’s much more systemic than that to begin with.

We'll see how much is 433 successful when Messi will be gone.
We can't say whether we won 7 La Ligas due to tactics or just due to Messi who was alone banging 40-50 goals each season.
Remove Messi from maths, keep your "Barca's DNA tactics" without Messi and we'll be a 3rd place team in La liga probably.

About the last part, 3men midfield, muscles and Guardiola, I explained above, it is all connected.
Imo, before Pep, Barca was more flexible, with more different options.
And LESS successful.
Then, during Pep, Pep went into extremes with EVERYTHING, brought a success but now we are left with his extreme-one dimensional ideas and without that much success.

3men midfield?
1. opponents have figured it out
2. when we had Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets, those 3 alone were worth as 4 "regular" midfielders. So those 3 weren't outplayed by a 4men midfield.
But when you don't have Xavi-Iniesta-Busi, then you are just outplayed by almost any top team with 4 or 5 midfielders nowadays.
3. not to mention that we had Dani Alves, who was like "a false midfielder". So, we had Xavi-Iniesta-Busi who were worth as 4 regular midfielders plus we had Danio Alves on the right as a false midfielder.
So, basically, in Pep's days we had 4 midfielders (Xavi-Ini-Busi who were worth as 4 guys) and Alves as "the 5th guy".

What you have today? Granny Iniesta, slow Raki, slow Busi and fullbacks: Alba who is not a midfielder, and Semedo who doesn't know how to link up.

So, yes, 3men midfield from 2011 and a 3men midfield from today are 2 different universes.

2. physicality? I explained above, Pep went into extremes and forced us to play with only one options: short-technical midfielders and short-fast-technical attackers.

So, yes, we have lots of problems on several different levels, but imo, a lot of problems came because of Pep.
His tactics worked for us short term, but now we are left in problems because his style is not working anymore, and yet we are unwilling to accept that, move on and evolve.

So, again, I don't want us to play like England or Man Utd.
I would like us to go back from: 100% possession, 100% weak players, 100% shooting with feet
To= 70-80% shortpasses, 20-30% crosses, long balls
From 100% short players
To: 70% short players, 30% stronger players
From 100% finishing with feet
To: 70-80% finishes with feet, 20-30% headers

So, I don't have problems with "Barca's style" but with "Pep's extreme style".
I would like to go back closer to Rijkaard's or Van Gaal's type of players, passing and scoring.

Aerial crosses into the box were never a big part of the tactics.

2006:
Just look at lineups again: midfield CDM Edmilson (a strong workhorse), CM Motta (lol, do I even need to explain this part?), CM Deco (the only shorter, technical guy).
Attack: fast-strong-tall-technical Ronnie and Etoo and short guy Messi.
Defense: 3 Cbs, Cbs Puyol and Marquez and a RB Oleguer who is a CB, to give more muscles and defending to that side.
So, did you see what happened here compared to Pep's era or compared to our last 10 years?
1. in attack, we could have played shortpasses, but we could have played crosses also, if needed
2. in midfield, we have both technique, and some muscles and strength NOT to get bullied in away CL matches
3. in defense, instead of having only short "Barca's DNA" fullbacks who are a problem in every single corner, Rijkaard dropped a regular RB and played another CB as a RB, so we lost some technique and earned more muscles and strength and arial presence, especially during defensive corners (remember 3rd Roma's goal when our short guys were marking Roma's "towers").
So, in both defense-midfield and attack, we see different things than in Pep's era and than in current era.

So, a combination of technique and muscles all around the pitch.
Also, look at a plan B: we were losing 1:0 and we couldn't create THAT much through the ground and the pitch was horrible, wet and frozen.
And then when we couldn't break Mourinho's box through the middle (which happens often), Rijkaard brought in even Larsson and we started to play more crosses and headers.
And both our goals, for 1:1 and 1:2 came after crosses and headers.
So, even then, HEADERS were not our choice NO1, but it was A GOOD THING to have that option in moments when you can't break the bus through the middle.
Now, go back to a current era: what can we do when we can't break the bus through the middle?
= nothing.
We will just repeat the same shit for 1000 times over and over.
And that is because of Pep and his legacy.
He brought a shortpassing-possession game to a perfection but killed all other options.
And now, when our shortpassing game sucks due to average midfielders and not having Alves as a false midfielder, we are screwed on a CL level.
Also, remove Messi from maths, and we will be screwed with these onedimensional tactics both in La liga and in a CL.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], if you were the manager or the president of Barcelona in 2008 we would've never had the greatest team ever.

 

[MessiCam]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]. During the 2006 year, van Bommel (who was a DM) only played due to Xavi’s injury and it was only when a young Iniesta came on in the Champions League final that we took control. Pre-Pep and even during Pep’s era we always used a box to box option for certain matches. Pep used Keita to magnificent effect. He was fire in air with late runs into the box. Kind of what Paulinho is supposed to be for us going forward.

Pep also brought in Ibrahimovic, Hleb, Keita... Your theory is horribly wrong.

Eto’o also wasn’t good in the air.

Yes, Barcelona have always used a physical player but it’s not as wide spread as you would have us believe.

 

[manuel blassi]

What about getting Bonucci for short term (2-3years) solution? I have read somwhere that Milan has big FFP ptoblems and could be willing to sell him. The problem I see in Langlet is that he can only play LCB.

 

[ebieymjunior]

I'd love to see this lineup

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[serghei]

I'd love to see this lineup

<iframe width="350" height="500" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://lineupbuilder.com/350x500/?p=11&a=1&t=Barcelona&c=0700db&1=GK_ter%20Stegen%20/%20Cillessen__388_174&2=DLL_Alba%20/%20Digne__293_56_148-0&3=DCL_Umtiti%20/%20Vermaelen__327_138_44-311&4=DCR_Piqu%E9%20/%20de%20Ligt__327_211_44-55&5=DRR_Semedo%20/%20Roberto__293_292_146-0&6=AC_Messi%20/%20Su%E1rez__124_177&7=MC_Coutinho%20/%20Denis__192_122_57-342&8=DM_Busquets%20/%20Samper__252_175_57-181&9=MC_Thiago%20/%20Arthur%20/%20Ale%F1%E1__192_234&10=WL_Griezmann%20/%20Arn%E1iz__80_78_88-79&11=WR_Demb%E9l%E9%20/%20Munir__81_271&c2=f00813&c3=ffffff&output=embed"></iframe>

How is Griezmann going to drift inside on his right foot from the left if he is left footed?

 

[ebieymjunior]

How is Griezmann going to drift inside on his right foot from the left if he is left footed?

Doesn't necessarily have to drift there. Dembélé would drift from the right yes, but Griezmann would move to the center when Messi drifts back, and he can start the move from there.

 

[hardyboy]

I'd love to see this lineup

<iframe width="350" height="500" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://lineupbuilder.com/350x500/?p=11&a=1&t=Barcelona&c=0700db&1=GK_ter%20Stegen%20/%20Cillessen__388_174&2=DLL_Alba%20/%20Digne__293_56_148-0&3=DCL_Umtiti%20/%20Vermaelen__327_138_44-311&4=DCR_Piqu%E9%20/%20de%20Ligt__327_211_44-55&5=DRR_Semedo%20/%20Roberto__293_292_146-0&6=AC_Messi%20/%20Su%E1rez__124_177&7=MC_Coutinho%20/%20Denis__192_122_57-342&8=DM_Busquets%20/%20Samper__252_175_57-181&9=MC_Thiago%20/%20Arthur%20/%20Ale%F1%E1__192_234&10=WL_Griezmann%20/%20Arn%E1iz__80_78_88-79&11=WR_Demb%E9l%E9%20/%20Munir__81_271&c2=f00813&c3=ffffff&output=embed"></iframe>

That's a suicidal line-up. We'd get murdered defensively by a half decent attacking side..