Bundesliga

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Really? Bayern constantly buys the opposition's best players. Lewandowski and Gotze being the most recent example. As soon as Dormund was becoming a real force, they bought the best players in their team. Says it all about the league. They did the same with Leverkusen in the early 2000's.

Yeah, yeah, the same old stereotype.

Lewandowski would have left either way, most likely Real Madrid. Not to mention the fact that Bayern did not BUY him at all.

Götze was a welcome present to Pep. Be glad about that as Pep actually wanted Neymar. Götze would have left too, though he might have stayed one or two years longer, true.

Now tell me, who else from the current team came from a direct Bundesliga competitor? Neuer? Schalke was not really competition at that time.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]

Bayern has no legendary players?

Neuer is one of the best goalkeepers ever, Lahm is one of the best German players ever (he is seriously underrated anyway), Robben is one of the best Dutch players ever, Alaba and Boateng are on their way to become legends in the future. Lewa is writing history right now etc.

In 20 years you will look back and realize how good these guys were if you are not realizing that now.

They have (had: Schweinsteiger) Treble and World Cup winners just like we have (had) them.

The problem when talking about keepers is that every great team has a great keeper, with very few exceptions. There is very little between Neuer and the likes of Cech, Van der Sar, Casillas, Buffon, Kahn and others. I'm sorry, but Neuer can't really make the difference for Bayern against a world class team more like a normal great keeper can, and the discussion was about generational player that could change a game with a moment of brillance.

And about legendary players, it depends what you mean by the term (strange term and not one I would normally use tbh). A lot of players are legendary for a team and for the fan base of that team. The Bayern from the late '90s early 2000's also had legends like Memet Scholl, Kahn, Lizarazu, Effenberg. However, people rarely remembers "only" great players.

There must be more than 100 great footballers since 2000s, that people rarely talk about. People mostly talk about generational players, superstar players that touch of genius that sets them apart everyone else. Zidane had the insane elegance for example, Xavi the most amazing and realiable pass ever maybe, Ronaldo was called Il Fenomeno (it wasn't for nothing), Cristiano Ronaldo reaches insane numbers and is the perfect athlete, Ronaldinho will be known as the player that could do anything with the ball and always played with the smile on his face, INVENTING things, redefining dribbles and so on and so forth.

So, Bayern has great players, true, but they don't have that genius, one of a kind players. And no, Neuer, for all his sweeper-keeper stuff, is not one of a kind in any way that would make him better than say Casillas and Buffon (or Oliver Kahn, to give a Bayern example), players that are still in activity after more than 15 years of top football.

 

[serghei]

Yeah, yeah, the same old stereotype.

Lewandowski would have left either way, most likely Real Madrid. Not to mention the fact that Bayern did not BUY him at all.

Götze was a welcome present to Pep. Be glad about that as Pep actually wanted Neymar. Götze would have left too, though he might have stayed one or two years longer, true.

Now tell me, who else from the current team came from a direct Bundesliga competitor? Neuer? Schalke was not really competition at that time.

There was a brilliant post by DennyCrane on the matter some time ago. It's no sci-fi, or stereotyping. One way Bayern deals with growing opposition is by buying their players. The big fish eats the small fish. Which is not necessarily Bayern's fault, but the league's fault, for not having another team that can wrestle with Bayern from a financial pov.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

Without Neuer there would have been no World Cup title for Germany last year. Just to name one trophy where he played an essential part in.
People are not talking about Busi either e.g. But he is one of the best players of his generation. Just like Lahm is.

 

[serghei]

Without Neuer there would have been no World Cup title for Germany last year. Just to name one trophy where he played an essential part in.
People are not talking about Busi either e.g. But he is one of the best players of his generation. Just like Lahm is.

Offensive players always take the cake. In every sport. It's not good, or bad, but it is normal. Almost every player in the team is important in a World Cup win.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

Has nothing to do with the topic or your point.

 

[serghei]

Has nothing to do with the topic or your point.

I've said several things. Which one are you talking about?

I've said:

1. Bayern does not have genius, generational players, players that people think about as the best, players that people will remember for decades to come. I've given examples pf such players: Zidane, Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Ronaldinho & others. These are players of higher level than what Bayern has.
2. Bundesliga is a weak league, with only one superpower.
3. Very few truly great players in Bundesliga outside of Bayern, especially in offense. Reus and that's about it. Whereas in Spain or England you have several world class players at different teams.

And some other things.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Really? Bayern constantly buys the opposition's best players. Lewandowski and Gotze being the most recent example. As soon as Dormund was becoming a real force, they bought the best players in their team. Says it all about the league. They did the same with Leverkusen in the early 2000's.

Bayern has been the most prominent team in Bundesliga in the last 20-25 years but it never had this kind of lopsided total domination it has in the last several years and in the foreseeable future. If you look at the historical list of Buli title holders, Bayern certainly wasn't winning it year after year (they are currently on a run of 3-consecutive Buli titles, winning this season will make it a historical 4-in-a-row which is a record for them), you have the likes of Stuttgart, Werder Bremen along with BVB winning titles not too long ago (BVB had the back to back titles in the 10/11 and 11/12 season, for example).

Yeah, I am aware of Bayern's tactics of weakening their immediate opponents thanks to our fellow Cule DennyCrane's informative writings. But as bitter as I still am as a BVB supporter, I would not say that was the case with Goetze and Lewandowski. Goetze was billed as the "once in a generation player", "German player of the century" and everybody wanted to get their hands on him, whether he was at BVB or some other Buli team, Bayern would want to sign him for his perceived huge potential and star power. Plus, Goetze was a Bayern fan growing up and he wanted to play for Guardiola. With Lewandowski, he was adamant to join Bayern despite interest from allegedly Real Madrid and some EPL teams, he wanted to go nowhere but Munich.

I do very much agree that Bayern has been a huge beneficiary and prying force of the growth and talent developed by other Buli teams, and because of Bayern's status as the only long-term elite club in Germany it is sucking up most of the German talent and prospects resulting in an unbalanced playing field, which is very unfortunate for everyone else.

 

[serghei]

Bayern has been the most prominent team in Bundesliga in the last 20-25 years but it never had this kind of lopsided total domination it has in the last several years and in the foreseeable future. If you look at the historical list of Buli title holders, Bayern certainly wasn't winning it year after year (they are currently on a run of 3-consecutive Buli titles, winning this season will make it a historical 4-in-a-row which is a record for them), you have the likes of Stuttgart, Werder Bremen along with BVB winning titles not too long ago (BVB had the back to back titles in the 10/11 and 11/12 season, for example).

Yeah, I am aware of Bayern's tactics of weakening their immediate opponents thanks to our fellow Cule DennyCrane's informative writings. But as bitter as I still am as a BVB supporter, I would not say that was the case with Goetze and Lewandowski. Goetze was billed as the "once in a generation player", "German player of the century" and everybody wanted to get their hands on him, whether he was at BVB or some other Buli team, Bayern would want to sign him for his perceived huge potential and star power. Plus, Goetze was a Bayern fan growing up and he wanted to play for Guardiola. With Lewandowski, he was adamant to join Bayern despite interest from allegedly Real Madrid and some EPL teams, he wanted to go nowhere but Munich.

I do very much agree that Bayern has been a huge beneficiary and prying force of the growth and talent developed by other Buli teams, and because of Bayern's status as the only long-term elite club in Germany it is sucking up most of the German talent and prospects resulting in an unbalanced playing field, which is very unfortunate for everyone else.

I'm talking about Bundesliga right now of course, not about whay happened in the distant past. Thing is Bayern is a force comparable with Barcelona and Real Madrid, minus the power to atract truly the very best players in the world (they are well behind Barca and Real at that). That league does not have a team of that caliber to make it interesting.

I'm not saying it's Bayern's fault. But Bayern did buy Dortmund's best players, and in a serious league that can never happen. Imagine Barca buying Real's 2 best players. Not possible. The balance of power in Bundesliga is clear. Bayern will not let a team develop into something truly big. Maybe if some sheikh buys a german club and start spending like crazy. That would be interesting. Maybe in that way Bundesliga will be a league of two financial super-powers. Until then, no.

 

[Luftstalag14]

I've said several things. Which one are you talking about?

I've said:

1. Bayern does not have genius, generational players, players that people think about as the best, players that people will remember for decades to come. I've given examples pf such players: Zidane, Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Ronaldinho & others. These are players of higher level than what Bayern has.
2. Bundesliga is a weak league, with only one superpower.
3. Very few truly great players in Bundesliga outside of Bayern, especially in offense. Reus and that's about it. Whereas in Spain or England you have several world class players at different teams.

And some other things.

That's because the top five or 10 players in the world all time have been mostly from Latin America and other Latin-origin countries if you will (such as Spain, France, Italy etc.). Beckenbauer did play for Bayern though. It is a fact that Bayern and other Bundesliga teams mostly attract players from within Germany and other central and eastern European countries, most Latin players don't go to Germany mostly because of language and cultural issues. The only good Latin players I remember ever playing for Bayern was Elber, Lucio and Ze Roberto.

 

[serghei]

That's because the top five or 10 players in the world all time have been mostly from Latin America and other Latin-origin countries if you will (such as Spain, France, Italy etc.). Beckenbauer did for Bayern though. It is a fact that Bayern and other Bundesliga teams mostly attract players from within Germany and other central and eastern European countries, most Latin players don't go to Germany mostly because of language and cultural issues. The only good Latin players I remember ever playing for Bayern was Elber, Lucio, Ze Roberto.

That's true, and I've said it as well. And besides the cultural and language issues, usually South American players dream of playing for Barcelona or Real Madrid. Arriving at this two teams is seen as the pinnacle of their career, the highest goal in club football.

It's one thing that Barcelona and Real have over Bayern, the fact that these latin and latin-american superstars see FC Barcelona and Real Madrid as bigger clubs than Bayern.

 

[Luftstalag14]

I'm talking about Bundesliga right now of course, not about whay happened in the distant past. Thing is Bayern is a force comparable with Barcelona and Real Madrid, minus the power to atract truly the very best players in the world (they are well behind Barca and Real at that). That league does not have a team of that caliber to make it interesting.

I'm not saying it's Bayern's fault. But Bayern did buy Dortmund's best players, and in a serious league that can never happen. Imagine Barca buying Real's 2 best players. Not possible. The balance of power in Bundesliga is clear. Bayern will not let a team develop into something truly big. Maybe if some sheikh buys a german club and start spending like crazy. That would be interesting. Maybe in that way Bundesliga will be a league of two financial super-powers. Until then, no.

Yes, I agree that things are looking rather bleak for other non-Bayern Buli teams, competitively. It was almost like when the Dream Team (Team USA Basketball Team) first entered the Olympics and the FIBA tournaments, the other teams had to basically resign to competing for the 2nd place. The outlook of Bayern dominating Bundesliga will not change any time soon, for sure and in a way it is making that league boring and less appealing, even for an ardent Bundesliga fan like myself nowadays.

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

The problem when talking about keepers is that every great team has a great keeper, with very few exceptions. There is very little between Neuer and the likes of Cech, Van der Sar, Casillas, Buffon, Kahn and others. I'm sorry, but Neuer can't really make the difference for Bayern against a world class team more like a normal great keeper can, and the discussion was about generational player that could change a game with a moment of brillance.

Unbelievable how you can have such a distorted perception. You claim that the most complete gk in history as well as the best sweeper keeper in history has nothing on the most elite defensive goalkeepers of the past 20 years as well as that said gk does not improve the attacking fluency of a great team with an attacking mindset compared to a defensive gk.

Seriously, what the fuck?

 

[Luftstalag14]

That's true, and I've said it as well. And besides the cultural and language issues, usually South American players dream of playing for Barcelona or Real Madrid. Arriving at this two teams is seen as the pinnacle of their career, the highest goal in club football.

It's one thing that Barcelona and Real have over Bayern, the fact that these latin and latin-american superstars see FC Barcelona and Real Madrid as bigger clubs than Bayern.

Sure, not just Latin and Latin American players, I'd dare to say if all players today (except for some German players perhaps) were given the chance to play for any team, Real Madrid and us would have been the team of choice. Back in the 80's and 90's that would have been Real Madrid and AC Milan I think.

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

There was a brilliant post by DennyCrane on the matter some time ago. It's no sci-fi, or stereotyping. One way Bayern deals with growing opposition is by buying their players. The big fish eats the small fish. Which is not necessarily Bayern's fault, but the league's fault, for not having another team that can wrestle with Bayern from a financial pov.

nice way of dodging/ignoring my challenge, which would have exposed your claim at least about the current Bayern team as false.