Bundesliga

[Luftstalag14]

This match hasn't been relevant for nearly a decade now.

Not true, BVB beat Bayern to two consecutive league titles between 2010 and 2012 before they started fading out in 2013. Losing Goetze to Bayern was the start of their downfall.

 

[jamrock]

Somethings needs to be gone in Germany

 

[Yannik]

that's kinda the issue with teams that have great periods but lack a bigger financial background. They won't match top team wages, their players will leave and they'll make some decent replacements at first, but at some point they put their money on the wrong guy and then it'll go downhill form there. Most players from the 2010-2014 period are gone or have declined, they do have some cash on their hand with recent sales, but they lack the pulling power to replace every departure 1to1 and the more they struggle, the less attractive they get. It's sad, but that's how it is.

At some point teams like Atletico or Napoli will probably also fall victim to that (for now they deal really good with keeping their players) whereas Milan and Inter will probably become great teams again.

 

[Luftstalag14]

that's kinda the issue with teams that have great periods but lack a bigger financial background. They won't match top team wages, their players will leave and they'll make some decent replacements at first, but at some point they put their money on the wrong guy and then it'll go downhill form there. Most players from the 2010-2014 period are gone or have declined, they do have some cash on their hand with recent sales, but they lack the pulling power to replace every departure 1to1 and the more they struggle, the less attractive they get. It's sad, but that's how it is.

At some point teams like Atletico or Napoli will probably also fall victim to that (for now they deal really good with keeping their players) whereas Milan and Inter will probably become great teams again.

It also helps when they have Watzke running the club. I am not a fan of Tuchel but firing him was one of their worst decisions this decade.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Bayern clinched their six consecutive league title, with no serious competitors in the foreesable future.

Bundesliga, bayernsliga, boringliga.

 

[Morten]

Bayern clinched their six consecutive league title, with no serious competitors in the foreesable future.

Bundesliga, bayernsliga, boringliga.

s
Bayern was always the biggest side, but it used to be reasonably competitive before they started current run, a few different winners in the years before that.

 

[Luftstalag14]

s
Bayern was always the biggest side, but it used to be reasonably competitive before they started current run, a few different winners in the years before that.

I know that, just saying that Bayern's dominance will be the theme in the foreseeable future.

 

[Donauwelle]

Not true, BVB beat Bayern to two consecutive league titles between 2010 and 2012 before they started fading out in 2013. Losing Goetze to Bayern was the start of their downfall.

The start of their downfall was not adapting their tactics to their new won position and to the changes in the Bundesliga. What Tuchel did - a rebuild to a team that is easy with the ball and not just against the ball was actually that what should have been done before - in addition to buying players that matched to that kind of strategy. Instead they bought only new shiny offensive players and took back the players from the past that did not make it elsewhere where other match strategies were played.

Dortmund already was 25 points behind Bayern before Götze transferred. And Götze was a player that sure has a lot of talent - but in this system of Klopp were there was a lot studied runnings he already seemed to be further than he actually was. At BVB the assist king - he never came anywhere near that at Bayern or in the national team. Götze in my eyes never really made the next step out of that talent stage - but he started very high. And he seems not to really have the body for his skill set. (or he worked too less or wrongly for it). That makes it difficult, too.

It is wrong to always blame Bayern. They have an extraordinary team what you see that they are above the record set by the 1972 guys now probably the 5th out of 6 years - and it held 40 years.

A team that wants to really rival Bayern has to stay ahead of the other pack first. Dortmund e.g. might not have the financial strength of Bayern - but they far can outspend the other team in the Bundesliga. But they did not really show that consistently in the recent seasons. Bayern needed decades to get where they are - two years of good work for sure will not get you there. But nobody has to win the comparison with Bayern - they have first to win the comparison with Schalke, Leipzig and low-budget Frankfurt...

 

[Morten]

Bundesliga teams cant really challenge Bayern, when they have all accepted that Bayern is the top dog by default.
Obviously, they are top dog, but when the other clubs just accept it and dont have any real ambitions, its never going to change either.

Come to think of it, Germany is pretty much the only major league that only has one true top team historically, at least Italy used to have Milan.
Its almost as if they all came together at the start and just decided that Bayern were supposed to be the big German flagship, and the others are just there to prop them up as much as they can. Sure, you can nick a trophy or two, but then, part of the deal is to willingly let Bayern pick apart your team shortly after.

 

[LeeRomeno]

70s - Borussia Mönchengladback was dominating with 5 wins in decade, Bayern won 3 times
80s - Bayern with 6 from 10
90s - most equal period, Bayern won 3 from 10, but also Kaiserslautern and Dortmund won a few and others one
00s - back to Bayern dominance with 6 from 10, then again, they did not win back-to-back titles except for 99/00 and 00/01, meaning every other season there was new club to win
10s - Decade is not even over, but apart from 2 seasons (11/12) won by Borussia, Bayern has won every single one.

So clearly the current decade is where Bayern has massively overjumped everyone else and turned Bundesliga into 1 team liga. It has always been strong there, but not as dominant as now.

 

[Luftstalag14]

The start of their downfall was not adapting their tactics to their new won position and to the changes in the Bundesliga. What Tuchel did - a rebuild to a team that is easy with the ball and not just against the ball was actually that what should have been done before - in addition to buying players that matched to that kind of strategy. Instead they bought only new shiny offensive players and took back the players from the past that did not make it elsewhere where other match strategies were played.

Dortmund already was 25 points behind Bayern before Götze transferred. And Götze was a player that sure has a lot of talent - but in this system of Klopp were there was a lot studied runnings he already seemed to be further than he actually was. At BVB the assist king - he never came anywhere near that at Bayern or in the national team. Götze in my eyes never really made the next step out of that talent stage - but he started very high. And he seems not to really have the body for his skill set. (or he worked too less or wrongly for it). That makes it difficult, too.

It is wrong to always blame Bayern. They have an extraordinary team what you see that they are above the record set by the 1972 guys now probably the 5th out of 6 years - and it held 40 years.

A team that wants to really rival Bayern has to stay ahead of the other pack first. Dortmund e.g. might not have the financial strength of Bayern - but they far can outspend the other team in the Bundesliga. But they did not really show that consistently in the recent seasons. Bayern needed decades to get where they are - two years of good work for sure will not get you there. But nobody has to win the comparison with Bayern - they have first to win the comparison with Schalke, Leipzig and low-budget Frankfurt...

BVB’s most recent chapter of decline predated Tuchel though, as a matter of fact it started when Klopp was in charge. What I meant by Goetze was, Goetze was clearly one of their biggest stars at the time (along with Reus) who showed a lot of promises, more importantly he was the pivotal point of their midfield-front line therefore losing him was a big blow and the watershed moment for BVB. BVB has been losing players for years before that, for example Sahin and Kagawa etc., losing Goetze was probably the final straw the broke the camel’s back.

It is easy to blame their management for the decisions they made and what players they bought and should have bought etc. but let’s face it, BVB and many other Buli clubs are just a springboard/incubator to go to Bayern and overseas elite clubs. They don’t have enough money to match the salaries offered by the elite clubs and they simply can’t retain their players. And honestly, Bundesliga at its current stage does not look that attractive to top, established players (unless it is Bayern) so it is hard for the likes of BVB and Schalke etc. to outspend and match Bayern.

 

[Donauwelle]

BVB’s most recent chapter of decline predated Tuchel though, as a matter of fact it started when Klopp was in charge. What I meant by Goetze was, Goetze was clearly one of their biggest stars at the time (along with Reus) who showed a lot of promises, more importantly he was the pivotal point of their midfield-front line therefore losing him was a big blow and the watershed moment for BVB. BVB has been losing players for years before that, for example Sahin and Kagawa etc., losing Goetze was probably the final straw the broke the camel’s back.

It is easy to blame their management for the decisions they made and what players they bought and should have bought etc. but let’s face it, BVB and many other Buli clubs are just a springboard/incubator to go to Bayern and overseas elite clubs. They don’t have enough money to match the salaries offered by the elite clubs and they simply can’t retain their players. And honestly, Bundesliga at its current stage does not look that attractive to top, established players (unless it is Bayern) so it is hard for the likes of BVB and Schalke etc. to outspend and match Bayern.

You have the problem to look first to the gap to Bayern - yes, that is impossible right now and actually was the recent seasons as Bayern did not have big blips. In all seasons since 2012 they had atleast as much points as the historical 1972 team had (who held their record for 40 years!). But Bayern worked for that position for decades - both on and off the field. It did not come overnight but the bright time in the last seasons really came from an exceptional generation with a real great mentality - prior Bayern teams thought they could win matches with 40% "investment" and that often did not work out...

Winning the league does not mean to have a strategy in that one or two matches against Bayern - but to have one against the other 16. And the Gegenpressing strategy of Klopp was great when it was new in the Bundesliga - and is against top teams that want to play with the ball - but it is a lottery against teams that are equally setup and you need another midfield for playing good ball possession football. And you are right - the problems already started in the Klopp era in 12/13 or 13/14 - even if their football still worked great internationally. The teams started to sit back and hoof the ball against them. They still had good results especially as they often had a match opener with a set-piece or penalty or a big mistake of the opponent - then the opponent had to open up to get a result and that played into their book. But the mentality to work together faded as they weren't just the young guys on one level anymore they were in 10/11/12 but some of them were stars...

Tuchel has done good work - but in difference to Klopp he is not the great mediator coach, more the tactican - and he is a "special" character. Some of the established players just weren't able to shine anymore and that made it difficult, too.

The clubs in the middle of the table always were raided by the top clubs - like the ones on the bottom got raided by the clubs in the middle. And maybe as a middle class club you cannot hold the shiny players - but you should be able to hold yourself a spine out of very good relieable players. That aren't the players that get the big money elsewhere either. And the Bundesliga and especially Dortmund seem to attract the shiny young players that are on the rise - you might not be able to hold them for years - but they bring profits.

If you look at the 6 best performing clubs in Germany behind Bayern from 12/13 to 2017 none of them was really consistent. When you take their lowest and highest point tally in this five years there is a gap of 25 points for Dortmund, 24 points for Leverkusen, 21 for Schalke, 40 for Wolfsburg, 31 for Hoffenheim. One year Champions League - the next year near the relegation ranks until somewhen in March or April. If you somewhen in the future want to rival the top clubs in Europe - not just one year as a surprise candidate when you overperform and the others have a blip - you first have to establish yourself consistently as the 2nd or 3rd team in the country because of the money the Champions League gives you. And there are more and more talents that see the Bundesliga as stepstone - recently even players from Spain or England.

In 13/14 - after Götze left - Dortmund had 5 points more in the league than they had with him.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Donis has got some crazy skills and pace, let's get him!

https://www.clippituser.tv/c/zkyxvm (Assist against Bayern)

https://www.clippituser.tv/c/plzbyp (Goal against Bayern)

 

[Luftstalag14]

Stuttgart running wild at the Allianz Arena, 1-4 so far...

3rd goal, the combination and finishing are just beautiful: https://www.clippituser.tv/c/nbzagb

4th goal: https://www.clippituser.tv/c/qvzpgk

Bundesliga really doesn't lack quality plays.

 

[ThwiX]

Bayern getting trashed. Love it.