Champions League Semi Final: Liverpool - FC Barcelona 4-3 agg.

[Ursegor]

But, wouldn't you say Messi's position is something that lies within the attributes of the manager? What is the manager if not the person who sets the tactics and gives the players tactical roles to fulfill? One would say that finding a balanced shape which includes Messi is the no1 objective of a Barca manager in the 2010's. By your own accord, Valverde is not doing a great job, since, in your opinion, there are huge holes in the team.

You think every single manager in world football would be unable to make Messi a bit more disciplined and consistent with his workrate? I disagree if so. The Messi problem has been made worse by managers who gave him way too much freedom, because it was an easy and sure way to win league titles almost. It started with Tito, and now continues with Valverde 6 years later. With Lucho, in 2014-15 Messi has been the best because he was also the most disciplined regarding the space he operates in.

Alves never did the flank on his own mind you. That's why we talk about Alvessi here, there was always some partnership involved. We played a very clear 4-3-3 during almost all of Alves' time here so he had a partner in that flank to combine with constantly. So what we're asking from our RBs is something we didn't even ask from Alves, which in my opinion is the best fullback I've seen since 1998 since I started following football seriously.

But, again, it comes to the same point. Whose job it is to solve Messi's positional chaos if not the manager's (and obviously the player in question)? Messi and Valverde are first to blame for this issue, which, when Messi is not in god-mode (which is happening more frequently at this level), has been one of the main causes in the last 3 years in our CL failures. The overall shape of the team is more important than one player's individual performance.

Yes, I think there is no manager in the world who can make Messi press consistently nor stay wide. When Suarez first joined, and please remember his first game against Real Madrid, Suarez was putting crosses in from the right wing. We had the best #9 in the world on the right flank. Then we had a little meltdown where Lucho had fallen out with Messi apparently and Camp Nou was booing Enrique and cheering Messi with Messi liking Chelsea on Instagram or whatever. Then Messi agreed for 6 months to play on the right and we destroyed everything, apparently Suarez and him agreed on that themselves on the pitch at some point. It lasted 6 months. Season after Messi decided to come in the middle again and we had no right flank and got torn apart there for 2 seasons. All this happened under Luis Enrique who has huge balls and takes no shit from no one and he only got discipline out of Messi for 6 months while almost losing his job for it.

Valverde has solved the issue in a different way. Last season with 4 midfielders and a more compact shape. And he's getting hate for it.

And again you misinterpret what I'm saying. We have huge holes in the squad to play a certain style. With the more compact, "defensive" Valverde style, we don't have that problem of course. So Valverde is not failing at his job, otherwise he wouldn't have 90+ % win rate if he was failing at anything. He's just solving the problem in a way that people here don't like.

Question for you: Are you implying we can consistently play a high press with Messi in the team + other key players (Busquets, Rakitic, Suarez) being 30+ years old? Show me your starting XI and formation, please. And while doing so:

If you put Messi on the right, explain how he will actually stay there and do defensive work.
If you put Messi in the middle, explain to me how Dembélé and Malcom will be good enough for us to win trophies in this way. Malcom isn't good enough, Dembélé does not defend and is injured all the time.
If you put Messi on the right AND any sort midfield variation that does not include Rakitic (like Arthur-Coutinho CM partnership), explain where the missing water carrying efforts of Rakitic will come from to make up for Messi?

Etc.

 

[Ursegor]

Alba does what Alves in his prime did. In Pep's era we had a world class right back and average LB in Abidal. Now it's vica versa. We have a world class LB and an average RB. Roberto and Semedo both do their job just fine.

This has nothing to do with the shape of the team. Messi does not play on the left so it's irrelevant whether we have Abidal (defensive) or Alba (offensive) there, other than for Messi's diagonal passes. The right side is important because on paper we are putting Messi on the right flank but in reality we have no one on the right flank. Neither offensively to combine with the rightback, nor defensively to track back or press the opposition leftback.

 

[Andrew M]

You can be against EV or in favour of EV, ok no problem, but I hope everyone's hoping that we win the CL
Reading some posts I have some doubts

You're right to have doubts unfortunately.

 

[George_Costanza]

Yes, I think there is no manager in the world who can make Messi press consistently nor stay wide. When Suarez first joined, and please remember his first game against Real Madrid, Suarez was putting crosses in from the right wing. We had the best #9 in the world on the right flank. Then we had a little meltdown where Lucho had fallen out with Messi apparently and Camp Nou was booing Enrique and cheering Messi with Messi liking Chelsea on Instagram or whatever. Then Messi agreed for 6 months to play on the right and we destroyed everything, apparently Suarez and him agreed on that themselves on the pitch at some point. It lasted 6 months. Season after Messi decided to come in the middle again and we had no right flank and got torn apart there for 2 seasons. All this happened under Luis Enrique who has huge balls and takes no shit from no one and he only got discipline out of Messi for 6 months while almost losing his job for it.

Valverde has solved the issue in a different way. Last season with 4 midfielders and a more compact shape. And he's getting hate for it.

And again you misinterpret what I'm saying. We have huge holes in the squad to play a certain style. With the more compact, "defensive" Valverde style, we don't have that problem of course. So Valverde is not failing at his job, otherwise he wouldn't have 90+ % win rate if he was failing at anything. He's just solving the problem in a way that people here don't like.

I don't think anyone here doesn't know Messi's position issue. He is given the duty of playing a free-roaming playmaker role which allows him to move around the field. A multi-talented player like Messi shouldn't be restricted to one role or position. It will be such a waste! I have no idea how you missed such an obvious conclusion and turned this positive merit we have into a fault by the player and how our genius manager tries to minimize this mistake. Great players don't wait for opportunities to come their way in tight games, they go looking for them and that what Messi is doing.

The manager's job is to get the best out of his players, EV should move Messi to the middle because he is actually playing more in the middle, he will cover more area being in free-roaming. Then what's the problem? well, some concerns: Who is in the RW position? What position Suarez should play? Who is in the LW? If Valverde can answer these simple questions, he will find the balance he is looking for without changing formations.

 

[henias]

Im sure The usual anti-valverde fans would at least see it as a win-win situation, if we lose they Can hate more in ev and demand him fired (all tho that wont happen) and if we win its also a "win"

Look, if we are such evil hateful "anti-Valverde" fans, how would it ever be a "win" situation for us? You basically just contradicted yourself.

More like it's an excuse for you to "win" while looking like a saint alongside naysayers just in case EV fails.

For us, the criticism for Valverde has never been a win or lose, it's just EV fans being obsessed with bringing up results. Intertwining us with your simplistic flawed argument is kinda tiresome while trying make people out like they want their team to lose. Like I said, it all depends on the tactics and lineup that night and how well the coach prepares the team against the opposition.

 

[Hamzah]

valverde actually found a solution to the messi problem by using 4-4-2 a lot last season and some games this season. though that also has its cons.

 

[Hamzah]

I don't think anyone here doesn't know Messi's position issue. He is given the duty of playing a free-roaming playmaker role which allows him to move around the field. A multi-talented player like Messi shouldn't be restricted to one role or position. It will be such a waste! I have no idea how you missed such an obvious conclusion and turned this positive merit we have into a fault by the player and how our genius manager tries to minimize this mistake. Great players don't wait for opportunities to come their way in tight games, they go looking for them and that what Messi is doing.

The manager's job is to get the best out of his players, EV should move Messi to the middle because he is actually playing more in the middle, he will cover more area being in free-roaming. Then what's the problem? well, some concerns: Who is in the RW position? What position Suarez should play? Who is in the LW? If Valverde can answer these simple questions, he will find the balance he is looking for without changing formations.

messi should be involved in the pressing game and be disciplined and move to rw when defending, but he refuses to.

 

[serghei]

Yes, I think there is no manager in the world who can make Messi press consistently nor stay wide. When Suarez first joined, and please remember his first game against Real Madrid, Suarez was putting crosses in from the right wing. We had the best #9 in the world on the right flank. Then we had a little meltdown where Lucho had fallen out with Messi apparently and Camp Nou was booing Enrique and cheering Messi with Messi liking Chelsea on Instagram or whatever. Then Messi agreed for 6 months to play on the right and we destroyed everything, apparently Suarez and him agreed on that themselves on the pitch at some point. It lasted 6 months. Season after Messi decided to come in the middle again and we had no right flank and got torn apart there for 2 seasons. All this happened under Luis Enrique who has huge balls and takes no shit from no one and he only got discipline out of Messi for 6 months while almost losing his job for it.

Valverde has solved the issue in a different way. Last season with 4 midfielders and a more compact shape. And he's getting hate for it.

And again you misinterpret what I'm saying. We have huge holes in the squad to play a certain style. With the more compact, "defensive" Valverde style, we don't have that problem of course. So Valverde is not failing at his job, otherwise he wouldn't have 90+ % win rate if he was failing at anything. He's just solving the problem in a way that people here don't like.

Question for you: Are you implying we can consistently play a high press with Messi in the team + other key players (Busquets, Rakitic, Suarez) being 30+ years old? Show me your starting XI and formation, please. And while doing so:

If you put Messi on the right, explain how he will actually stay there and do defensive work.
If you put Messi in the middle, explain to me how Dembélé and Malcom will be good enough for us to win trophies in this way. Malcom isn't good enough, Dembélé does not defend and is injured all the time.
If you put Messi on the right AND any sort midfield variation that does not include Rakitic (like Arthur-Coutinho CM partnership), explain where the missing water carrying efforts of Rakitic will come from to make up for Messi?

Etc.

Best to keep it short and to the point.

No, intense pressing is not possible nor it is something I blame Valverde for not managing to impose.

Yes, I believe Messi is stubborn and very hard to deal with. This is our own fault for having giving him too much special treatment.

I do believe that he can be used better, and be made to participate more off the ball. And no, Valverde has not found a solution to the problem in the Champions League, at least not in my opinion. The only viable solution, which can work vs the big sides, is to motivate Messi more, to a degree that he at least does a part of what a normal RW should do in the defensive aspects of the game.

Our competitors defend with 10 players + keeper. We can't match that by defending with just 8, and keeping 2 players with very low defensive roles. We're not creating enough compactness this way. This is actually why we're not talking about us being heavy favorites in this tie.

So, more effort from Messi and Suarez is the only way here. Everything else will probably fail against serious teams. And despite the overrating of Liverpool, they are a serious side.

I expect Messi to keep the shape in defensive transition. This mostly means blocking the advancing of the opposite fullback with the ball. Even if he does mostly that and not much else it's still a big deal, since the other teams build attack on our right flank.

The 4-4-2 we do in defensive transition (basically the whole team gravitate to the right, as Coutinho drops in midfield) is in every way inferior to the 4-5-1 we should use. 4-3-3 is best switched in defensive transition in 4-5-1, with minor adjustments from the wingers. Liverpool play the same. They will switch from 4-3-3 into 4-5-1, which is a superior defensive transition and better counter attacking setup than our 4-3-3 to 4-4-2 setup. Don't think Salah does too much defensive work either. But he does the basics.

 

[henias]

I dont get it. Is that to say a 442 doesnt require pressing? In fact, the 442 needs to be the most hardworking off the ball, more so than the 433. 442 also needs to be extremely compact, cover large areas of the pitch and be pressing high in order to disrupt the opponent. Last season we already see Busquets and Rakitic struggling to keep up with the intensity leaving all sorts of problems for the CBs to do extra defensive work.

The 442 only works for weaker La Liga teams. Against stronger teams it definitely doesnt work for a team like Barcelona.

How we are still discussing about 442 is baffling.

 

[Gari]

Valverde: "Liverpool are a very powerful team, with a great level of pressure and rhythm to their play.”
“Liverpool has strong outbursts that can overwhelm you completely in 15 minutes, and sometimes it succeeds.”
“Messi is fine. This month he has rested more than other players, but I have to say that it has been a very busy and loaded month. He is ready, so is the rest of the team.”
“The words of Klopp? I think he just wanted to de-dramatize the game.”
"I would have liked for Suarez to not finish the match against Levante and rest him, but I thought we needed him."
"This Liverpool is very similar to the one who lost last season against Madrid."

Rakitic:"We are prepared and with an incredible desire to win, it will be very important to score and keep a clean sheet"

 

[BarçaBarça]

So, [MENTION=12215]Ursegor[/MENTION], since you don't want to write walls of text, I guess your overall view on Messi, Valverde and the reasonable expectations from this team is the following:

Messi is unable to follow tactical plans and instructions under any manager, and Valverde should be excused of any issues which derive from Messi's positional deficiencies. He's doing the best he can with a situation which is already past the point of no return.

So, what Valverde is doing with this situation is trying to minimize the way in which Messi's poor workrate and positional game is affecting us. Trying to treat the effect, rather than cure the cause so to speak. And we should all be grateful, because, with a team that has clear issues, he's found ways to dominate both Atletico and Real Madrid, and win probably back to back domestic doubles. Which is more than we can realistically expect with this team at this stage.

Am I close?

If we couple that with your comments on the other team, Liverpool for instance, in this semifinal it's two visibly flawed teams put under pressure, and all that's left in this tie is to see who cracks up under pressure. And your money are on Liverpool cracking and us winning the whole thing.

Exactly, I honestly don't see Valverde genuinely trying to solve these blatant issues so one is in no position to blame the players for such problems. These issues has been around since Lucho's era yet Valverde is mimicking the same setup, expecting a different outcome? It's simply common sense, you dont try the same thing with different set of players with different abilities. Only difference EV has a greater variety of players to choose from, to experiment, yet he still doesnt trust having a natural right winger, constantly trying to shoehorn Messi in the RW position.

I don't think Messi is a huge issue, as long as he is able to do his own thing and have the luxury of the free-role. The problem comes when the team is not instructed to be less dependant on Messi, to have their own mind of attacking roles and patterns. I dont see Messi shouting for the ball; he's just everywhere on the pitch, waiting to pounce on given the chance. Managers constantly fail to make such notion clear for the team. No wonder Barcelona has been extremely predictable and plagued with problems.

Lets just acknowledge that Messi is about to play one of his best seasons ever. How on earth can that be turned into a "positional problem" with Messi? Instead we should be asking how this teams has helped Messi to find his best again, so we can do the same in coming seasons, because that works brilliantly!

I see the problem elsewhere with for example with many players who are too slow like Suarez, Rakitic, Busquets, Coutinho and Arthur. That is a problem, which will in part be solved with De Jongs arrival, as he is more dynamic than our other midfielders, imo. A forward with more pace than Suarez would be great too. And keep Dembele of course.

Imo, Valverde has handles Messi great this season, tweaking the team to play best to his advantages. Sometimes he has overplayed Suarez (like recently) partly to take focus away from Messi as Suarez always demands attention and press like a maniac at times, which helps Messi.

I make no excuses for Valverde as to the Liverpool game. The game will show us how great Valverde is to handle top competition, and it will be a difficult game for sure, but we are not lost, be sure about that. It is good to remember that even Pep with infinite money can't guarantee CL, so no one can demand that we win it, but with how it has developed this season we should be very disappointed, not least in Valverde if we miss the opportunity.

We have good preparations with a rested Messi (will make a huge difference for us), an upward-form Coutinho. Dembele as a supersub is quite alright in CL, tbh. Big question is if Suarez can step up in CL again and deliver a top performance.

 

[eaman]

Would be great if the players scoring against their old clubs thing happens for us. It does seem to happen alot. We'd have the bonus of two of their ex players

 

[PhilS]

I wish Barca had more positional problems like Messi. He goes where he needs to go to win the games, which is perfect positioning.

Messi goes where he thinks he should go, it is up to the rest of the team to do whatever it takes to cover for his roaming. His defensive effort is episodic, as his energy levels permit. Again, the rest of the team must provide coverage.

 

[Danic]

What im concerned about, Liverpool plays fast football with a lot of pressure and our defense has a lot of problems with teams pressing hard. Raki and Busquets have a hard time not beeing overplayed. Often we become very chaotic when this happens.
Esspecially in Liverpool we will have our toughest game this season i guess.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

What im concerned about, Liverpool plays fast football with a lot of pressure and our defense has a lot of problems with teams pressing hard. Raki and Busquets have a hard time not beeing overplayed. Often we become very chaotic when this happens.
Esspecially in Liverpool we will have our toughest game this season i guess.

I don't expect them to come out crazy vs Barcelona at Camp Nou. Liverpool yes.