Christian Eriksen

[Joan]

Eriksen would bring so much flexibility to our squad. Coutinho already does, but with a player like Eriksen, we would have even more of that.

I think he could be easily converted into RCM at Barca. Seeing his performances this year, his workrate etc... I know, it will be hard to replace Iniesta's defensive contributions, but I really think that we can do that if we play a 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 hybrid, with Messi and two wingers that are willing to defend.

Attack:

--------------Ter Stegen------------
Bob/Sem---Pique----Umtiti---Alba
---------------Busquets-------------
------Eriksen----------Rakitić-------
----------------Messi----------------
Dembele-------------------Coutinho


Defending:

--------------Ter Stegen------------
Bob/Sem---Pique----Umtiti---Alba
---------------Busquets-------------
Dembele-Eriksen-Rakitić-Coutinho
----------------Messi----------------

Arthur being a sub for Rakitić when out of form. Alena being a sub for Eriksen. Denis for Cou. Oriol for Sergio.

With a tall striker (ala Manđukić as a plan B), this team would be sexy.

I think this team lacks a goalscorer.

Can't rely upon your midfield to be your main scoring threat.

Eriksen scored 10 in the EPL, Coutinho never went over 20. Dembele is not a scorer etc.

 

[FCBfan22]

I think this team lacks a goalscorer.

Can't rely upon your midfield to be your main scoring threat.

Eriksen scored 10 in the EPL, Coutinho never went over 20. Dembele is not a scorer etc.

Erm, Leo?

Regearding Dembele, we will see next season. If he, Coutinho and Eriksen can chip in with cca 15 goals per season, I think we are good. Leo will add his 30 with creative players all around him.

 

[Saladin]

Alena is only one of those getting promoted. Maybe likes of Ortola as third keeper but not the others.

Likes of Ruiz was not even B team level ready last season. Need to be given time to develop a good bit yet.

I agree about Ruiz, but Valverde confirmed both Alena and Busquets would be promoted to the first squad only a week ago.

Ortola was in case we sell Cillesen to Liverpool or another club, since he is looking for more playing time which is fair for a Netherlands NT keeper.

 

[Joan]

Erm, Leo?

Regearding Dembele, we will see next season. If he, Coutinho and Eriksen can chip in with cca 15 goals per season, I think we are good. Leo will add his 30 with creative players all around him.

But Leo is the only one. It might work, don't know. Just feel you'd need someone who will score in there.

Who'll be in the box when Messi drops back? Who'll stretch the pitch vertically? Etc.

 

[JamDav1982]

I agree about Ruiz, but Valverde confirmed both Alena and Busquets would be promoted to the first squad only a week ago.

Ortola was in case we sell Cillesen to Liverpool or another club, since he is looking for more playing time which is fair for a Netherlands NT keeper.

He didnt confirm Busquets was getting promoted dont think.

If he does he will most likely be loaned out due to little point in dropping a level.

Ortola wont be the second choice keeper. If Barca sell Cillesen they would most likely pay for a very experienced high level back up.

 

[El Barcelona]

And Spanish media knows that - how exactly?

Was an article couple weeks ago. I think it was discussed on this forum.

 

[MessiCam]

But Leo is the only one. It might work, don't know. Just feel you'd need someone who will score in there.

Who'll be in the box when Messi drops back? Who'll stretch the pitch vertically? Etc.

Your wings play vertically.

 

[Joan]

Your wings play vertically.

That's a false 9 which will crumble against most well-set teams, double pivots for instance. Would be even worse now since Messi lost some of his pace.

One of the reasons we need an additional goal-scorer is that Messi's become too good at creating for us to ignore it.

 

[MessiCam]

That's a false 9 which will crumble against most well-set teams, double pivots for instance. Would be even worse now since Messi lost some of his pace.

One of the reasons we need an additional goal-scorer is that Messi's become too good at creating for us to ignore it.

I don’t get this reasoning and never have...

If the double pivots job is to mark the False 9, who takes care of the CM’s? It can’t be the CB’s or the FB’s... The CM’s or Wings would have an inordinate amount of space then.

The only way to effectively deal with a False 9 of Messi’s calibre is very compact lines which happens in any event due to the nature of his game.

The creation part... Well, that’s why you want him at False 9 so he remains a clear scoring as well as a “playmaking” threat while maintaining a decent central midfield numerically. It gets him out of the way defensively too and adds a tactical body in midfield.

The benefits of playing Messi as a False 9 outweigh the cons significantly. Coutinho, Dembélé and/or Griezmann are capable of scoring loads too.

If I have to honest, I don’t know where the idea of a outright “9” came from because it was never a major consideration for Barcelona. The idea has always been to control the ball and move opponents around. Even Eto’o and Henry played on the wings for large chunks.

 

[Joan]

I don’t get this reasoning and never have...

If the double pivots job is to mark the False 9, who takes care of the CM’s? It can’t be the CB’s or the FB’s... The CM’s or Wings would have an inordinate amount of space then.

The only way to effectively deal with a False 9 of Messi’s calibre is very compact lines which happens in any event due to the nature of his game.

The creation part... Well, that’s why you want him at False 9 so he remains a clear scoring as well as a “playmaking” threat while maintaining a decent central midfield numerically. It gets him out of the way defensively too and adds a tactical body in midfield.

The benefits of playing Messi as a False 9 outweigh the cons significantly. Coutinho, Dembélé and/or Griezmann are capable of scoring loads too.

If I have to honest, I don’t know where the idea of a outright “9” came from because it was never a major consideration for Barcelona. The idea has always been to control the ball and move opponents around. Even Eto’o and Henry played on the wings for large chunks.

Different teams will approach this in different ways, of course.

But, why would you need to man-mark a false 9 all the time? It's often sufficient to keep it congested in the middle, between the lines. The importance of a player between the lines is that he opens space. When a single pivot decides to mark a creative player (be it a 10, be it a false 9) he opens space. But with double pivot that space is covered. There is usually no space in the middle. What do you do then? Attack through the wings.

The other point is: The CMs or Wings would have an inordinate amount of space then.
True. But where is this space? It's far from the goal OR on the wings. If wingers and FBs in 4-2-3-1 cover that space well and coordinate themselves, where is that space then? You can pass the ball around the box, rarely get it close to the box (zone 14) and occasionally get it on the wings. But what when we get it on the wings? Cross? Pass is tough since the area is congested and what happens? We usually lose the ball.

Having Henry there and Coutinho is not the same.

Eriksen scored 10 in the league this season. Coutinho 15 (8 for us, 7 for Liverpool). That's 25 in TWO players. Suarez himself scored as much and we say he's been useless. I would never rely on those guys to be our main goalscoring threats.

 

[MessiCam]

Different teams will approach this in different ways, of course.

But, why would you need to man-mark a false 9 all the time? It's often sufficient to keep it congested in the middle, between the lines. The importance of a player between the lines is that he opens space. When a single pivot decides to mark a creative player (be it a 10, be it a false 9) he opens space. But with double pivot that space is covered. There is usually no space in the middle. What do you do then? Attack through the wings.

How is this any different to what is happening now with Messi basically playing as a 10? The zones are the same it's just the role that has changed...

The other point is: The CMs or Wings would have an inordinate amount of space then.
True. But where is this space? It's far from the goal OR on the wings. If wingers and FBs in 4-2-3-1 cover that space well and coordinate themselves, where is that space then? You can pass the ball around the box, rarely get it close to the box (zone 14) and occasionally get it on the wings. But what when we get it on the wings? Cross? Pass is tough since the area is congested and what happens? We usually lose the ball.

Space is space and in football it's a commodity. You can't leave quality players with grand canyons worth of space... If the Wings/FB's take the decision to close down the space in the middle then the opposition Wings/FB's get that space. This is what the False 9 does... It creates uncertainty. Look at what happened in the Juventus game when Messi played False 9... Him and Dembélé created space by switching positions and it left Messi in particular with big spaces. When having wingers like Coutinho and Dembélé teams are going find it very tough to close down spaces.

Having Henry there and Coutinho is not the same.

Henry's best goal scoring season was 26 (All competitons)... Coutinho could easily match that because he has scored 22 (All competitions) during a season in which he changed teams mid-season.

Eriksen scored 10 in the league this season. Coutinho 15 (8 for us, 7 for Liverpool). That's 25 in TWO players. Suarez himself scored as much and we say he's been useless. I would never rely on those guys to be our main goalscoring threats.

It's not Suarez' goal scoring that is the problem but rather his tactical influence on the team. Tell me how do you play both Messi and Suarez (centrally) with dedicated wingers without sacrificing a passing option in midfield? Suarez has also lost his first touch, is slower than Messi and his finishing has declined too... If the 2 of them must play together then 1 is going to have to play wide. There is no other way around it.

Edit: Your other alternative tactically is to play a 3-4-3 Diamond with Messi in the hole and Suarez ahead of him as Lucho eventually found out. But does Valverde have the balls to go that route?

It's also easy to forget that in our last great Champions League campaign Messi scored 8 of his 10 goals as a False 9.

 

[Joan]

How is this any different to what is happening now with Messi basically playing as a 10? The zones are the same it's just the role that has changed...

It's not very different, right about that but this way there's Suarez in front of him, occasionally Paulinho, ideally Griezmann who will stretch the defensive block and free some space for Messi or be open to receive the pass and finish.

Otherwise you have Coutinho and Dembele who will do what? Try to find Messi?

Space is space and in football it's a commodity. You can't leave quality players with grand canyons worth of space... If the Wings/FB's take the decision to close down the space in the middle then the opposition Wings/FB's get that space. This is what the False 9 does... It creates uncertainty. Look at what happened in the Juventus game when Messi played False 9... Him and Dembélé created space by switching positions and it left Messi in particular with big spaces. When having wingers like Coutinho and Dembélé teams are going find it very tough to close down spaces.

Space is not space. That's why zones exist. I think that with time teams would prepare themselves for our 4-3-3 false 9. Remember that the cure is this time known and it needs to be trained.

There were tons of space last season vs. Juve. What did we create? Nothing at all.

Having an option in the box to receive crosses has become a must since teams defend way better than they used to.

That said, using false 9 from time to time to surprise your opponent is the way to go, IMO. Even in CL, why not?

Henry's best goal scoring season was 26 (All competitons)... Coutinho could easily match that because he has scored 22 (All competitions) during a season in which he changed teams mid-season.


It's not Suarez' goal scoring that is the problem but rather his tactical influence on the team. Tell me how do you play both Messi and Suarez (centrally) with dedicated wingers without sacrificing a passing option in midfield? Suarez has also lost his first touch, is slower than Messi and his finishing has declined too... If the 2 of them must play together then 1 is going to have to play wide. There is no other way around it.

Edit: Your other alternative tactically is to play a 3-4-3 Diamond with Messi in the hole and Suarez ahead of him as Lucho eventually found out. But does Valverde have the balls to go that route?

It's also easy to forget that in our last great Champions League campaign Messi scored 8 of his 10 goals as a False 9.

The problem is that you want us to keep 3 in the midfield. You can't do that. You can't do that.

In 3-3-1-3 you sacrifice FBs. Shouldn't do that.

 

[MessiCam]

It's not very different, right about that but this way there's Suarez in front of him, occasionally Paulinho, ideally Griezmann who will stretch the defensive block and free some space for Messi or be open to receive the pass and finish.

Otherwise you have Coutinho and Dembele who will do what? Try to find Messi?

No. When Messi is deep they cut in. JDP allows for free roaming in the final third. Positional structure is only maintained in the other 2 thirds. How does Paulinho play in this 2 man central midfield of yours? Suarez - striker, Messi - 10, Coutinho - LW, Dembélé/Griezmann - RW, Busquets - Pivot, Paulinho - Pivot (Ahead of Messi in the box?). If a 4-3-3 is a counter magnet then this setup is a recipe for disaster.

What you're trying to describe is typical of a 4-3-3 False 9 with an outright 9 used as an inside forward. In that case Paulinho as the box to box option has freedom to dart into the box.

Space is not space. That's why zones exist. I think that with time teams would prepare themselves for our 4-3-3 false 9. Remember that the cure is this time known and it needs to be trained.

There were tons of space last season vs. Juve. What did we create? Nothing at all.

Having an option in the box to receive crosses has become a must since teams defend way better than they used to.

That said, using false 9 from time to time to surprise your opponent is the way to go, IMO. Even in CL, why not?

Yeah and Suarez playing through the centre in 3-3-1-3 with Rakitic as a RW and Roberto as a RCM. Not a very good example because Messi was the only excellence and created 2 clear cut chances that were wasted by Suarez and Iniesta. Even with a 4-3-3 False 9 there is always an option in the box or do you think that it is only an outright 9 gets that opportunity?

There is no cure for a False 9 or any possession based tactics other than parking a bus but how is that any different to parking a bus against a 4-4-2 where Messi drops deep in any event to find space?

The problem is that you want us to keep 3 in the midfield. You can't do that. You can't do that.

In 3-3-1-3 you sacrifice FBs. Shouldn't do that.

So what's your solution to our midfield problems? A 2 man midfield (4-4-2/4-2-3-1) because that's where we're headed by shoehorning both Messi and Suarez into the 11... Coutinho will play LW/LM and Dembélé or Griezmann RW/RM. Busquets automatically gets the one pivot spot. Or a narrow 4-3-1-2 but where does Dembélé and Griezmann fit into this because there is no attacking width. It's enough that Messi already significantly conditions the team tactically but here we have not just Messi but rather 2 others in Rakitic and Suarez doing the same... It is not sustainable. You need players that give you options like Dembélé, Griezmann, Coutinho, Arthur, Thiago because they play in multiple zones on the pitch and they do it with aplomb.

A technical midfield is your bread and butter, Madrid/Bayern etc figured this out, but yet we, as the pioneers, want to move away from it.

 

[Joan]

No. When Messi is deep they cut in. JDP allows for free roaming in the final third. Positional structure is only maintained in the other 2 thirds. How does Paulinho play in this 2 man central midfield of yours? Suarez - striker, Messi - 10, Coutinho - LW, Dembélé/Griezmann - RW, Busquets - Pivot, Paulinho - Pivot (Ahead of Messi in the box?). If a 4-3-3 is a counter magnet then this setup is a recipe for disaster.

What you're trying to describe is typical of a 4-3-3 False 9 with an outright 9 used as an inside forward. In that case Paulinho as the box to box option has freedom to dart into the box.

No. I'm talking about 2 different teams. One with Paulinho, one with Griezmann.

Paulinho behind the strikers who can shift positions with Messi or Messi behind Suarez and Griezmann, as inside forwards.

Yeah and Suarez playing through the centre in 3-3-1-3 with Rakitic as a RW and Roberto as a RCM. Not a very good example because Messi was the only excellence and created 2 clear cut chances that were wasted by Suarez and Iniesta. Even with a 4-3-3 False 9 there is always an option in the box or do you think that it is only an outright 9 gets that opportunity?

Formations are not important here. I was talking about space. WC players were given space and what did they do? Also, was talking about the match at Nou Camp.

No, I don't think that. But I do think that playing with a striker is more effective. Even more with mobile and flexible strikers who can change positions.

For instance, if you have Ronaldo on the left and Messi in the middle, then yes, go for right now. But Coutinho? Different players.

There is no cure for a False 9 or any possession based tactics other than parking a bus but how is that any different to parking a bus against a 4-4-2 where Messi drops deep in any event to find space.

Striker is the difference. Or players on the wings. I could accept 4-3-3 false 9 if other 2 weren't Dembele and Coutinho.

So what's your solution to our midfield problems? A 2 man midfield (4-4-2/4-2-3-1) because that's where we're headed by shoehorning both Messi and Suarez into the 11... Coutinho will play LW/LM and Dembélé or Griezmann RW/RM. Busquets automatically gets the one pivot spot. Or a narrow 4-3-1-2 but where does Dembélé and Griezmann fit into this because there is no attacking width. It's enough that Messi already significantly conditions the team tactically but here we have not just Messi but rather 2 others in Rakitic and Suarez doing the same... It is not sustainable. You need players that give you options like Dembélé, Griezmann, Coutinho, Arthur, Thiago because they play in multiple zones on the pitch and they do it with aplomb.

A technical midfield is your bread and butter, Madrid/Bayern etc figured this out, but yet we, as the pioneers, want to move away from it.

Before I reply, if you could make changes, how would your team look like?

 

[henias]

That's a false 9 which will crumble against most well-set teams, double pivots for instance. Would be even worse now since Messi lost some of his pace.

One of the reasons we need an additional goal-scorer is that Messi's become too good at creating for us to ignore it.

Exactly when Messi lose his pace, his one and only strength is as a false 9, there's simply no way around it. He needs pace from other players for him to execute his creativity, not players like Suarez who struggle to get past the defenders when Messi drops deep occassionally. Messi is the heart of attacks, counter attacks even, something even Real Madrid lacks terribly, when Isco fails to play consistently. Messi is an attacking jaugernaut that has executed the false 9 so perfectly, it's a no brainer that people try to accomodate players like fking Suarez when really, you should be building a team around Messi.

That being said, I think many people mistaken the players and manager failed tactics as Messi's false 9 being a catastrophe. Not at all. It's the players who feel the tendency to pass to Messi all the time instead of having their own pace, confidence and talent to make use of spaces, players like Coutinho, Dembele as opposed to players like Suarez. Rakitic did go on his own against Madrid but after that he just fizzled out and Valverde's tactics just restricted so much space and movement for Messi's false 9 to even work.