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El Gato

Villarato!
It's more of a result of athleticism than anything else. Dribbling and passing always gets more points and that's the way it should be. The one making the brilliant passes is always more worthy of credit than the one doing the runs. Not to say Ronaldo's off the ball work doesn't get criminally underrated, often people get to overstate the quality of service he receives. If he didn't win the duels with the defenders to ge to the ball first, then that service from Kroos, Modric, Carvajal, Marcelo wouldn't seem so inch perfect.

Putting a spin on a skill as if any grunt with muscle and stamina can make a good run isn’t doing you any favours.

Passes aren’t always brilliant, in fact a lot of the time they’re short and very obvious when you know the receiver is in his absolute correct position. Making a drilled cross straight across the box has as a difficulty rank in the same way and every Zaha caliber winger is capable of that. And making the right run with the right pace, stop or jump arc is as, if not more, a sign of mental acumen as using your leg to kick the ball properly.

Nah, you’re basically thinking a passer is more important because it’s who you see on TV all the time. Camera is never focused on the players on the edge of the box when a fullback is putting the moves on. Nobody wants to watch that. And the passer only usually has to make a quick decision and do the job with his body. Poachers? They don’t just push their defender away from them playing like a unskilled sack of potatoes. Look at the greats of the position. RvN, Inzaghi.. athletes of that day whose bodies broke down on them and could still perform at nearly 35 years old despite having zero strength.

It boils down to one thing - it’s a team sport. You have to pass to the receiver. Pass doesn’t work without it. Neither does the receiver. Youd always struggle to find one brilliant pass that doesn’t happen without a brilliant run. Discrediting the latter is telling in today’s understanding of football. People often love to praise the passer because his name doesn’t go on the scoresheet with this attitude almost rebellious against strikers, particularly applicable to the Ballon D’Or conversations and so on. This whole tapinaldo rhetoric is tiresome and just highlights people with a pile of shit for a brain.
 
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serghei

Senior Member
Far more goals in fact. CL finals he leads 4-2, semis `13 - 4 and in quarters 20 - 10.

He has played 2 more finals and 6 more semi final games but there is no doubt that Ronaldo has been a better goalscorer in Europe than him.

Well, there you have it. Ronaldo is a more prolific goalscorer at the biggest stage. It's a proven fact.

Putting a spin on a skill as if any grunt with muscle and stamina can make a good run isn’t doing you any favours.

Passes aren’t always brilliant, in fact a lot of the time they’re short and very obvious when you know the receiver is in his absolute correct position. Making a drilled cross straight across the box has as a difficulty rank in the same way and every Zaha caliber winger is capable of that. And making the right run with the right pace, stop or jump arc is as, if not more, a sign of mental acumen as using your leg to kick the ball properly.

Nah, you’re basically thinking a passer is more important because it’s who you see on TV all the time. Camera is never focused on the players on the edge of the box when a fullback is putting the moves on. Nobody wants to watch that. And the passer only usually has to make a quick decision and do the job with his body. Poachers? They don’t just push their defender away from them playing like a unskilled sack of potatoes. Look at the greats of the position. RvN, Inzaghi.. athletes of that day whose bodies broke down on them and could still perform at nearly 35 years old despite having zero strength.

It boils down to one thing - it’s a team sport. You have to pass to the receiver. Pass doesn’t work without it. Neither does the receiver. Youd always struggle to find one brilliant pass that doesn’t happen without a brilliant run. Discrediting the latter is telling in today’s understanding of football. People often love to praise the passer because his name doesn’t go on the scoresheet with this attitude almost rebellious against strikers, particularly applicable to the Ballon D’Or conversations and so on. This whole tapinaldo rhetoric is tiresome and just highlights people with a pile of shit for a brain.

I disagree that moving off the ball to meet a pass is as hard as the pass itself. Moving off the ball has no component of technique, of actually touching the ball and making it go where you want. But has a lot to do with power and determination. Most world class attacking players know what to do to get in the best place to gain an advantage in front of the defender. But some don't have the will, the speed and the power to do that. Ronaldo has both the drive, and the build to do it. Never underestimate the importance of how well his body is shaped. I have a friend who is a fitness coach, and he says Ronaldo is two levels above any other footballer he's seen in terms of body developement. He is a superb specimen of a footballer. Ronaldo does the same trick every top attacker does. But he is faster, stronger, has a monster will to win and give his best in every top game. This speaks volume about his mentality, but that still leaves him 2nd, after sheer genius. Same old discussion, as with Federer and Nadal. Innate talent, and genius always ends up ranking higher on the greatness scale than will and hard work.

Bur for me pass is always more important than the run. It involves more talent, it involves advanced ball striking techniques (there are dozens of way to hit a pass, and a single mistake would make it a bad one), it involves vision, it involves intelligence, it involves ultimate trust from your teammates who understand your command on the ball.

Ultimately every part is important, but some roles are more important than others in a team. Being as much a creator, passer, football mind, scorer, dribbler all into one, is a more demanding role, than being just a single cog in a well oiled machine, designed to fullfill a single task to great effect: scoring. Again, not to diminish anything from Ronaldo's influence, but he is a scorer, and this is where a lot of his influence beings and ends. Messi is more than that. His influence impacts the game in every way in the final 3rd. Long range shooting, dribbling, set pieces, assisting, setting the tempo, freeing space for others. Every single football action you can make in the final 3rd, Messi does it, or at the very least makes your job easier. Messi is an expert at maneuvering the ball in all aspects of attacking football. Ronaldo is an expert at attacking the ball and shooting. Here lies the difference. Messi takes over more roles sometimes he is the beginning and the end of the same play that ends up in a goal. Ronaldo doesn't do that except rarely.
 
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Contribution to goals off the ball and coming onto the pass is as important as the pass or dribble itself you know.

This is one of the most spoken Myth. Cristiano's off the ball movement is the same as other great goalscorers'. Neither better nor worse. Current RM is the most efficient attacking team I've ever seen. The fact that Real Madrid being extremely multi dimensional in attack leaves the opponent defenders too much to predict the movement of forwards. In addition to that, most significant part of Benzema's game is not goalscoring. It's his link up play and drawing defenders. He's even better than Suarez in that. We can laugh all we want at Benzema and say he is puppet of Perez. But, if you add Aguero in the position of Benzema it will significantly affect the goalscoring chances for Ronaldo.

The ratio of his goals for RM against poor teams vs big teams is almost same. While his ratio of goals for Portugal is Black and White.

The only way to counter this is by isolating Ronaldo to flanks from where is very inefficient except for few good crosses. It's what Valverde did. Sergi Roberto was left all alone to defend Ronaldo. Still Ronaldo could not create much chances. Most threatening chances came from Benzema. This is where it's difficult. Because, in order to isolate Ronaldo from this World Class RM team you need defenders with very high tactical knowledge. Pique, Rakitic and Busquets are such defenders. Even Roberto played a huge part. Roberto's ability to read game is another factor why he's chosen over semedo.
Most of the credits Ronaldo gets belong to Real Madrid team. You cannot read that from goal and assist statistics.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
Nah his movement is fucking unreal whether it be on the break and into space or on the break driving into space.

Much more than other 'goal scorers' in past.

Real Madrid are not the 'most efficient' attacking team of past ten years and Ronaldo is far and away their biggest weapon in attack anyway so if they are main credit is to him.

Ronaldo is banging in goals for Portugal, did for Man Utd and has done with other players at Real.

Some folk try to hard to pass all the credit for that onto his team mates.
 

serghei

Senior Member
This is one of the most spoken Myth. Cristiano's off the ball movement is the same as other great goalscorers'. Neither better nor worse. Current RM is the most efficient attacking team I've ever seen. The fact that Real Madrid being extremely multi dimensional in attack leaves the opponent defenders too much to predict the movement of forwards. In addition to that, most significant part of Benzema's game is not goalscoring. It's his link up play and drawing defenders. He's even better than Suarez in that.

The ratio of his goals for RM against poor teams vs big teams is almost same. While his ratio of goals for Portugal is Black and White.

The only way to counter this is by isolating Ronaldo to flanks from where is very inefficient except for few good crosses. It's what Valverde did. Sergi Roberto was left all alone to defend Ronaldo. Still Ronaldo could not create much chances. Most threatening chances came from Benzema. This is where it's difficult. Because, in order to isolate Ronaldo from this World Class RM team you need defenders with very high tactical knowledge. Pique, Rakitic and Busquets are such defenders. Even Roberto played a huge part. Roberto's ability to read game is another factor why he's chosen over semedo.
Most of the credits Ronaldo gets belong to Real Madrid team. You cannot read that from goal and assist statistics.

Smell the coffee man.

Ronaldo does the same tricks every striker does. Agreed. But he has 3 things that are very rare even in the world class strikers. And in the top games all 3 get activated simultaneously almost like clockwork.

1) He has an incredible hunger to score and win, and the bigger the game, the more motivated he is. This goes beyond what is normal even in professional football. I think this guy thinks about football 90% of the time, about hair lotions 5% of the time, and everything else is contained in the rest 5%.
2) He has the physical attributes to win any individual duel against any defender.
3) He has the shooting and heading technique to put the ball in the net once 1) and 2) allow him to get into a dangerous position.

You put those 3 together and you have to realise he isn't just any striker. Wouldn't be too bad for Messi to have some of his qualities. But maybe it would've been too much, so in a way it balances out.
 
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KingLeo10

Senior Member
Nah his movement is fucking unreal whether it be on the break and into space or on the break driving into space.

Much more than other 'goal scorers' in past.

Real Madrid are not the 'most efficient' attacking team of past ten years and Ronaldo is far and away their biggest weapon in attack anyway so if they are main credit is to him.

Ronaldo is banging in goals for Portugal, did for Man Utd and has done with other players at Real.

Some folk try to hard to pass all the credit for that onto his team mates.

[youtube]bCeQ6XjEftk[/youtube]

video to accentuate what jamdav is saying...

don't like him one bit, but he is an absolute menace goalscoring wise in any type of game, whether real has the frontfoot or is getting dominated in play.

that movement to attack the space between the juve defense while modric was making his run for the 3rd...if MSN had that we would have 3 trebles in 3 years with them. :lol:

with messi, who is for me the better PLAYER, you either get a truly dominant performance on the ball (with goals, assists), or a frustrated display where he is marked out of the game.
 
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Nah his movement is fucking unreal whether it be on the break and into space or on the break driving into space.

So is the movement of Messi, Gerd Muller and Puskas.

Real Madrid are not the 'most efficient' attacking team of past ten years
.
Provide me a valid argument if you're refuting my claim. Who is the most efficient attacking team of the last 10 years? Pep's Barca? Bayern? None.

Ronaldo is far and away their biggest weapon in attack anyway so if they are main credit is to him.
True until 2013. I'm speaking about current RM team.

Ronaldo goals for Portugal.
I clearly addressed this in my previous post.
Scored a lot for Man Utd
I totally agree with this.
And has scored with other players at Real.
I disagree. Compare his goals against big teams before 2014 and after 2014.
 
[youtube]bCeQ6XjEftk[/youtube]

video to accentuate what jamdav is saying...

don't like him one bit, but he is an absolute menace goalscoring wise in any type of game, whether real has the frontfoot or is getting dominated in play.

that movement to attack the space between the juve defense while modric was making his run for the 3rd...if MSN had that we would have 3 trebles in 3 years with them. :lol:

with messi, who is for me the better PLAYER, you either get a truly dominant performance on the ball (with goals, assists), or a frustrated display where he is marked out of the game.

You can develop similar compilation for Messi, Puskas and Muller. That's why I said neither better nor worse than other great goalscorers.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
You can develop similar compilation for Messi, Puskas and Muller. That's why I said neither better nor worse than other great goalscorers.

No can tell without doubt that the way Ronaldo moves off the ball to attack balls into the box or get in behind teams on the break is not the same as Messis or Mullers.

Can find a few goals here and there that will look similar but Ronaldo is completely different player to those three and gets his goals in a different way.
 
that movement to attack the space between the juve defense while modric was making his run for the 3rd...if MSN had that we would have 3 trebles in 3 years with them.
This goal was scored very soon after the second goal RM scored. The psychological factor is the most important factor of this goal. Modric knew the moment. And perfectly assisted him. It's the same way Messi assisted Neymar in the last few minutes of Bayern first leg semi final and in the final against Juve where defenders were unwilling to defend since it will not give them anything at that point.

Messi, who is for me the better PLAYER, you either get a truly dominant performance on the ball (with goals, assists), or a frustrated display where he is marked out of the game.
Messi being marked out of game is not because of his inferior off the ball movement. It's because i)you can stop him by parking bus since Messi and Barcelona itself is not dangerous in set pieces ii)Barca is unbelievably one dimensional. You know what they exactly are doing. They are only going to build up from the centre of the attacking third.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
This goal was scored very soon after the second goal RM scored. The psychological factor is the most important factor of this goal. Modric knew the moment. And perfectly assisted him. It's the same way Messi assisted Neymar in the last few minutes of Bayern second leg final and in the final against Juve where defenders were unwilling to defend since it will not give them anything at that point.


Messi being marked out of game is not because of his inferior off the ball movement. It's because i)you can stop him by parking bus since Messi and Barcelona itself is not dangerous in set pieces ii)Barca is unbelievably one dimensional. You know what they exactly are doing. They are only going to build up from the centre of the attacking third.

Haha every excuse in the book when Ronaldo scores a goal ffs.

If you cant see the difference in Ronaldo to Muller or Messi then you need to look closer.
 
No can tell without doubt that the way Ronaldo moves off the ball to attack balls into the box or get in behind teams on the break is not the same as Messis or Mullers.

Can find a few goals here and there that will look similar but Ronaldo is completely different player to those three and gets his goals in a different way.

No. He appears to be so. Because his one and only role is to find himself in the receiving end of the cross. But for Messi that's not the case.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
I clearly mentioned two instances that validate my claim that too both of them in the knockout stages and also by MSN since the original post claimed MSN couldn't do it. Again, provide me reason if you want to refute my statement.

No they are excuses they dont 'validate' any claim and claim Ronaldo is a poacher and scores goals in same way as likes of Muller or Messi is completely wrong and just shows dont understand him as a player.

His 'one and only role is to find himself on end of crosses'? Utter shite and even if true he is far more deadly at that than Muller or Messi would be.
 
No they are excuses they dont 'validate' any claim and claim Ronaldo is a poacher and scores goals in same way as likes of Muller or Messi is completely wrong and just shows dont understand him as a player.

His 'one and only role is to find himself on end of crosses'? Utter shite and even if true he is far more deadly at that than Muller or Messi would be.

It indeed, is a validation for Psychological factor of the moments of the game where players would be unwilling to perform certain functions that is not going to change the result. Navas' mistake for Vidal's third goal in the last few minutes being another example.

Being at the receiving end of the pass is Ronaldo's most significant role. If not tell me what his most significant role is.
 
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