DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
I agree that Messi is a better player in general, but jeez, you are really trying hard to edge everything you possibly can in Messis favor.
Messis best performances are more dominant than Ronaldos, yes, but there is no question that Ronaldo is now the better CL player.
You say something about goalratio, but again, Ronaldo has far outscored Messi in knockouts, the bigger games. Was it always top opposition in those knockouts? No, but neither was it for Messi. Knockout goals counts more than group stage goals for me and thats that.
As for titles, Messis first CL-title was hardly his achievment, i mean, that was Ronaldinhos Barcelona, they would have won it anyways.
Btw, people will indeed remember Ronaldos matches in the CL, even if he didnt drible past 5 players or something.
It's not "edging everything in Messi's favor" it's leveling the playing field. It's looking at the context of every match and every performance instead of decontextualizing everything into "goals" and then sometimes "assists". It's really no surprise at all that in every Messi v Ronaldo debate all the key details somehow get thrown out the window and it becomes a dick-measuring contest of goals/assists. The more facts and details you introduce to the discussion, the more it favors Messi. And that is no coincidence.
Can you answer my first question? Is Gerd Muller better than Maradona?
Because modern football fans have this weird complex of goals being the end all be all in a football discussion. It wasn't always the case, otherwise why would the likes of Maradona/Zidane/Cruyff/Iniesta/Xavi etc. be all time greats if they were barely even relevant as goalscorers? If you're really trying to define the overall value of a player you must take EVERYTHING into account.
Messi simply does way more on the football pitch and impacts games way more. If football had any semi-intelligent people involved in the community and developed net impact stats the way basketball has, then the debate about Messi/Ronaldo would barely have even existed in the first place. It's just primitive thinking.
Also, you said "what did Messi do in 2006"? He was amazing against Chelsea in the R16 and crucial towards breaking them down, again if you didn't only look at "goals" then you would know this. Well what did Ronaldo do in 2016? Score some goals against 8th place in the Bundesliga Wolfsburg? Win a final after playing HORRENDOUSLY and getting bailed out by an offside goal from Ramos and a penalty shootout? Get past the only challenging team they faced in the whole tournament in Man City via a single own goal over 2 legs?
Frankly, Messi has a number of losing CL campaigns better than some of the winning seasons by Ronaldo. He impacts Barca's winning seasons much more than Ronaldo does for RM as well. And I remember Ronaldo's performances in the CL just fine actually, better than many RM fans seem to. Every time I pull up match compilations of Ronaldo's CL games I get ignored for pointing out just how little he does outside of taking shots in the area and scoring. It's not about dribbling 5 players or whatever, he barely wins like 1 out of every 3 or 4 1v1's he attempts and it's been like this for years. He doesn't even do any on-ball duties of a striker in buildup, just look at how clueless he was out there without Benzema today to anchor the defensive line and hold up play.
Players like Gerd Muller, Mario Gomez, Thomas Muller, Falcao, etc. were undermined for years for being penalty box predators and poachers. Tell me why Ribery was unanimously the best Bayern player in 12/13 and not Muller/Gomez who both outscored him in all comps? Yet now when Ronaldo plays essentially the same way as those guys but with even MORE of an emphasis on finishing/poaching he gets all the glory for RM.