Cristiano Ronaldo

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Temptation

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Maradona37 said:
They are great, but as I have said, stats are not the be all and end all.

He also scored plenty of meaningless goals too. As just two examples, most of his goals in the 2014 CL knockout rounds were scored when games were already done and dusted. And I believe he scored 16 goals in 2016 CL, but loads of them came against the likes of Malmo and Wolfbsurg and other lesser teams.

The point is, he has scored against good teams, yes. But sometimes those goals are meaningless (like the semi in Munich in 2014, Ramos scored the two important goals then he scored goals when tie was dusted) or the final (as I alluded to elsewhere). And even when his goals have been meaningful, often they have been the result of service.

That is obviously still commendable, but the point is he was the tip of the spear. I don't see why he deserves much more credit than the team-mates who gave him lots of great service.

As for his finals - 2008 he scored a nice header, then disappeared for the rest of the game after Chelsea equalised then missed a pen in the shootout. 2009 poor. 2014 poor until the penalty debacle, 2016 poor (people glorify him for a penalty in a shootout, which is pressure yes, but is what I mean by people judging him by low standards), 2018 poor again. Good in 2017 though. So he has max 2 good games in 6 CL Finals.

Again, it's a question of loving stats. I would still much much rather watch messi's big performances in CL than Ronaldo's. Ronaldo was generally just the tip of the spear.

People talk about him like he's the king of the CL because of his stats - even when he scores lots of goals his all-round performances rarely impress me. He's very much a quantitative footballer than a qualitative. Most people seem to prefer stats to eye test, I am not one of them.

For instance you post that photo. Messi's 2015 Cl Final was immense and pisses all over most of Ronaldo's (if not all) but that doesn't receive any credit in that 'stats graphic'

Context is important.
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No one has scored more "meaningful" CL goals than CR7. It's not even close. His record against big teams in CL knockouts is head and shoulders above others.

He was nothing close to a poacher in his prime.

Look at that goal against Liverpool. He made it happen with that give and go, movement and amazing finish.
 
Maradona37

Maradona37

Well-known member
Temptation said:
No one has scored more "meaningful" CL goals than CR7. It's not even close. His record against big teams in CL knockouts is head and shoulders above others.

He was nothing close to a poacher in his prime.

Look at that goal against Liverpool. He made it happen with that give and go, movement and amazing finish.
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Never aaid he was a poacher - said he was the tip of the spear - not the same thing.

Point is he has scored important goals, but you are pointing out how many goals he scored, and I am adding context that a lot of them were unimportant. That's a fact when you analyse them, whether you like it or not. Did Messi and lewa score unimportant ones too? Absolutely, it comes with the territory. But not a single one of his 17 goals in the 2013-2014 season was an ultra-important one in a huge game. Don't believe me? Go back and look at it.

The point is you are going on about stats and comparing his stats to Messi. Those stats include a goal for his woeful 2014 Cl Final performance and Messi gets no credit for his 2015 CL wizard performance. That is an extreme example but part of why I ask for context and care less about stats than you and plenty of others.

The really annoying thing is I have lamented G/A obsession in the Lewa thread, and now you're quoting them at me. If I was more suspicious I'd say you're doing it on purpose to annoy me.
 
Fati_Future_BallonDor

Fati_Future_BallonDor

Well-known member
Maradona37 said:
They are great, but as I have said, stats are not the be all and end all.

He also scored plenty of meaningless goals too. As just two examples, most of his goals in the 2014 CL knockout rounds were scored when games were already done and dusted. And I believe he scored 16 goals in 2016 CL, but loads of them came against the likes of Malmo and Wolfbsurg and other lesser teams.

The point is, he has scored against good teams, yes. But sometimes those goals are meaningless (like the semi in Munich in 2014, Ramos scored the two important goals then he scored goals when tie was dusted) or the final (as I alluded to elsewhere). And even when his goals have been meaningful, often they have been the result of service.

That is obviously still commendable, but the point is he was the tip of the spear. I don't see why he deserves much more credit than the team-mates who gave him lots of great service.

As for his finals - 2008 he scored a nice header, then disappeared for the rest of the game after Chelsea equalised then missed a pen in the shootout. 2009 poor. 2014 poor until the penalty debacle, 2016 poor (people glorify him for a penalty in a shootout, which is pressure yes, but is what I mean by people judging him by low standards), 2018 poor again. Good in 2017 though. So he has max 2 good games in 6 CL Finals.

Again, it's a question of loving stats. I would still much much rather watch messi's big performances in CL than Ronaldo's. Ronaldo was generally just the tip of the spear.

People talk about him like he's the king of the CL because of his stats - even when he scores lots of goals his all-round performances rarely impress me. He's very much a quantitative footballer than a qualitative. Most people seem to prefer stats to eye test, I am not one of them.

For instance you post that photo. Messi's 2015 Cl Final was immense and pisses all over most of Ronaldo's (if not all) but that doesn't receive any credit in that 'stats graphic'

Context is important.
Click to expand...

He had a lot of insane performances even if you take the goals away:

Liverpool away 14/15
Schalke away 13/14
Juve away 17/18
Napoli home 16/17
Atletico home 16/17

and so on :oops:
 
Maradona37

Maradona37

Well-known member
'His record against big teams in CL knockouts'

For example, his three goals in the semis and final of 2014 CL count as 'goals against big teams in CL knockouts'. Yet all three of them were utterly pointless.
 
Maradona37

Maradona37

Well-known member
Fati_Future_BallonDor said:
He had a lot of insane performances even if you take the goals away:

Liverpool away 14/15
Schalke away 13/14
Juve away 17/18
Napoli home 16/17
Atletico home 16/17

and so on :oops:
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I have watched him a lot. He can't put in an 'insane performance' without scoring. That's one of the key differences between he and Messi. He's far more reliant on stats to look good.
 
T

Temptation

Well-known member
Maradona37 said:
He can't put in an 'insane performance' without scoring. That's one of the key differences between he and Messi. He's far more reliant on stats to look good.
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That's tough to do considering CR7 scored in most of those big games in the CL. 😂


Ultimately goals decide games. Shooting and passing will always be more important and decisive than dribbling in general.


You dribble 2 players and the 3rd one stops you. You play a defense splitting pass or score a header, your team takes the lead. A pass or a shot is always a faster and way more efficient route to the net than a dribble.


Ronaldo's heading is one of the most lethal weapons in the sport. You desperately need a goal? Just spam crosses. Most decent ballers know how to put a cross in. It makes big games much easier for managers.


This is why I rate Fellaini so highly as a squad option. Every squad should have a Fellaini. Brilliant Plan B. This is why so managers including possession purists like LVG loved Fellaini.
 
Maradona37

Maradona37

Well-known member
Temptation said:
That's tough to do considering CR7 scored in most of those big games in the CL. 😂


Ultimately goals decide games. Shooting and passing will always be more important and decisive than dribbling in general.


You dribble 2 players and the 3rd one stops you. You play a defense splitting pass or score a header, your team takes the lead. A pass or a shot is always a faster and way more efficient route to the net than a dribble.


Ronaldo's heading is one of the most insane weapons in the sport. You desperately need a goal? Just spam crosses. Most decent ballers know how to put a cross in. It makes big games much easier for managers.


This is why I rate Fellaini so highly as a squad option. Every squad should have a Fellaini. Brilliant Plan B. This is why so managers including possession purists like LVG loved Fellaini.
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He was invisible in most of his CL finals and didn't score in some semis too. Again, as I said, some other games he scored when ties were finished. We all watched the games mate and have the records, you cannot deny it.

That's a rookie mistake. A lot of what leads to shooting and chances created IS DRIBBLING. You talk like goals and shots exist in a vacuum. It's always a red flag when people out down dribbling, because dribbling is one of the best ways to create space, unbalance teams, and create numerical superiority. Plenty of ronaldo's goals came because another player or two dribbled past a player or two and created the space for the chance to ultimately come.

I can turn that paragraph on you too - a pass can be intercepted, a header can go over the bar, just the same as a dribble can be stopped. Yes they're quicker ways to do it, but an insane dribbler is an incredible weapon to have in a team. Especially in attacking midfielders, it is almost a necessity (which is partly why fernandes will fail under Amorim imo).

I never denied his heading from crosses is an insane weapon. Very basic, but it's true. Put a cross in and let him get a head on it. It's pish to watch, but it works. Never denied that. My point is I don't view that as anywhere near as gifted as Messi's dribbling. Dribbling will always take much more talent than heading.

Also, dribbling can be activated at any moment in a game. So can crossing but it becomes spamming if you keep doing it (man U 81 crosses against Fulham 2014). I guess you will say dribbling all the time signifies greediness.

You're mentioning plan Bs and I don't disagree. However that is another argument and has nothing to do with these two guys, who are always plan A.
 
T

Temptation

Well-known member
Maradona37 said:
He was invisible in most of his CL finals and didn't score in some semis too. Again, as I said, some other games he scored when ties were finished. We all watched the games mate and have the records, you cannot deny it.

That's a rookie mistake. A lot of what leads to shooting and chances created IS DRIBBLING. You talk like goals and shots exist in a vacuum. It's always a red flag when people out down dribbling, because dribbling is one of the best ways to create space, unbalance teams, and create numerical superiority. Plenty of ronaldo's goals came because another player or two dribbled past a player or two and created the space for the chance to ultimately come.

I can turn that paragraph on you too - a pass can be intercepted, a header can go over the bar, just the same as a dribble can be stopped. Yes they're quicker ways to do it, but an insane dribbler is an incredible weapon to have in a team. Especially in attacking midfielders, it is almost a necessity (which is partly why fernandes will fail under Amorim imo).

I never denied his heading from crosses is an insane weapon. Very basic, but it's true. Put a cross in and let him get a head on it. It's pish to watch, but it works. Never denied that. My point is I don't view that as anywhere near as gifted as Messi's dribbling. Dribbling will always take much more talent than heading.

You're mentioning plan Bs and I don't disagree. However that is another argument and has nothing to do with these two guys, who are always plan A.
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The thing is, everything can be stopped. Passing and finishing are just more efficient and high percentage actions. That's my argument.


A great dribbler is a huge asset, no doubt. You can unlock defenses, destroy the defensive shape and create space for others. But passing will always be more fundamental to the game in general.


A lot of the dribbles you're referring to are just ball carrying actions which players like Kovacic excel at. Also a very important quality.


True dribbling is less common and very low percentage in terms of efficiency which is why modern coaches discourage young boys from doing it in academy level today.


What takes more talent is debatable. High level passing in terms of range, vision, weight of pass, technique, decision-making and quality is very rare. Every player can pass but how many can pass like Pirlo?


Heading is a lethal weapon as plan B or plan A(for wingplay systems) but teams like Real Madrid had players like Kroos and Modric to control the tempo and kill time and build momentum.


Many people see possession as an offensive concept. I don't see it that way. Progressive possession patterns are an offensive tool. Keepball, recycling possession can be classified as a defensive tool too, by the simple principle that if you don't let the opposition have the ball, they can't score. Controlling the game in midfield is vital for both offensive and defensive reasons. Case in point the Spain NT 2008-2012. They were a lot less adventurous and exciting than Barca 2009-2011. That Spain team used to kill teams by passing and ball retention which was pretty boring. This is why I rate Xavi higher than Iniesta. He ran games and controlled everything for Spain and Barca.
 
Maradona37

Maradona37

Well-known member
Temptation said:
The thing is, everything can be stopped. Passing and finishing are just more efficient and high percentage actions. That's my argument.


A great dribbler is a huge asset, no doubt. You can unlock defenses, destroy the defensive shape and create space for others. But passing will always be more fundamental to the game in general.


A lot of the dribbles you're referring to are just ball carrying actions which players like Kovacic excel at. Also a very important quality.


True dribbling is less common and very low percentage in terms of efficiency which is why modern coaches discourage young boys from doing it in academy level today.


What takes more talent is debatable. High level passing in terms of range, vision, weight of pass, technique, decision-making and quality is very rare. Every player can pass but how many can pass like Pirlo?


Heading is a lethal weapon as plan B or plan A(for wingplay systems) but teams like Real Madrid had players like Kroos and Modric to control the tempo and kill time and build momentum.


Many people see possession as an offensive concept. I don't see it that way. Progressive possession patterns are an offensive tool. Keepball, recycling possession can be classified as a defensive tool too, by the simple principle that if you don't let the opposition have the ball, they can't score. Controlling the game in midfield is vital for both offensive and defensive reasons. Case in point the Spain NT 2008-2012. They were a lot less adventurous and exciting than Barca 2009-2011. That Spain team used to kill teams by passing and ball retention which was pretty boring. This is why I rate Xavi higher than Iniesta. He ran games and controlled everything for Spain and Barca.
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Fair enough, agree with bits and pieces and disagree with others, I respect the effort you put in and you do make some good, well-backed points so have allocated a like but cba arguing about it. All I have done today is discuss Lewa, Ronaldo and Vini. I am all debated out almost :lol:
 
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