Ernesto Valverde - V1

Barcaman

Administrator
Staff member
I get the feeling that some of the people posting here could not be more than 22 yrs old.

Putting a couple of things into perspective about EV (my final judgment on his first season will come at the very end):

1) Bad (defensive) football
True to some extent. We are not enjoying something very beautiful on the pitch, especially for Barca standards. We are seeing a compact side that can win games by being pragmatic in that it wins them by utilizing Messi's quality and not needing to set the whole team to attack and destroy its defensive shape.
Most would want something better. I share this concern entirely.

But, let's look for a second, why this took place. Some memory refreshing is useful here:
i) EV took over a barren land from Lucho. A team that had no character and no tactical plan and philosophy on the pitch, a team that was based entirely on the individual brilliance of its ageing superstarts, predominantly the MSN.
At the same time, he happened to take over at the worst summer in the recent history of the club. Losing Neumar to PSG, and having Real Madrid enjoying a unreasonably huge success with back to back CLs and dominating in Europe.

ii) The building of this team took place entirely in the months of September - October - November. Like most top coaches do, teams are built in the preseason and at the begging of the season, not in February, in April or in May. The last months of the season performance-wise and energy-wise are important, but always it's the part when what has been learnt during the first months of the season is consolidated.
What really happened those crucial months at the begging? EV after having lost Neymar, didn't have Coutinio, lost Dembele to injury very early, and of course had an awful off-form Suarez that was conceding possession with every single touch. In other words, the had only Messi as attacking force to build the team on.
On the other fronts, he had an ageing md of raki-iniesta-busi who could not cover ground for their lifes.
All these taking into account, left him few options of what he could do with the available squad at his disposal in order to build something sustainable that can challenge for the title with some good chance.
And he came down to this 4-4-2, with defensive-oriented wingers in the non-Barca quality Gomez, Vidal, Deniz, Deulofeu, and fielding in Paulinho wherever there was a gap.
Many would argue that he could come up with something better. It might be the case, but we don't have any evidence for that. And of course, for people that want to play 4-3-3 no matter what, you have to consider if you would have liked better the possibility of an all-attacking 4-3-3 with messi on the right, iniesta and raki high up, full backs on the opponents half, and the team suffering defeats like that from Roma every other week, when playing any decent side on the counter. (Given that you have realized we don't have anymore the squad to play like in Pep's era)

I think it's clear that EV decided entirely based on what material he had at his disposal. Remember that he was practicing that hybrid 4-3-1-2 with messi as false 9 and dembele-suarez on the wings before dembele getting injured and realizing that suarez is atrocious there and then. We don't know what would have happened if things were different in terms of squad. And likewise we don't know what WILL happen in the future if EV has a preseason to reshuffle things, with Coutinho, Dembele from the start and with two more top-shelf players coming.
No coach changes things in February and March. So all the shouts about not integrating Coutinho and Dembele are not very profound to say. Coutinho and Dembele fell victim of being absent when the tactical strategy of this team was designed in the first place.

Given the above his domestic record is nothing sort of exceptional so far. That might change if the team collapses from now onwards. But winning domestic double with unbeaten record, with that mediocre squad we started the season with, i am not so blind to say it's not a success.
CL elimination was a disaster, which, nevertheless, even the greatest haters of EV could not see it coming. And they could not see it coming for a reason: The bad performance against Roma away had nothing to do with EV tactics. We didn't lose to Roma because we played bad football. We didn't play good football in the first game, bur we won 4-1. It is a problem that runs many years back as Busi said and has to to with mentality issues.
Just refresh your memory: we went out again in the QF, like in 2017,2016,2014. With the exception of 14/15, the last years we are not there consistently..

2) Rotations
Not good enough. And we paid the price in the fatigue of the regulars.
Is it a sign of cowardice though? Not necessarily. Look some miles northern to see how much Pep rotated this season. For 4 months the trio fernandinho-de bruine-silva was getting rests only in League Cup games (that means playing EPL, CL, FA cup). Of course Pep can do that more easily, cz Man City is much younger team. Is the age of our squad EV fault? I don't think so.
Point being: rotations cannot take place successfully most of the times. They destroy an already built chemistry between the regulars. That's why majority of coaches don't want to rotate much.
And this is maybe the only quality i appreciate in Zidane: he is maybe the first coach of a top-tier club that managed to rotate so excessively and bring in titles despite that.


:goodpost:

Lack of timely rotations and bad football is something that's hard to look over.
Although, the latter, as you said, was also a byproduct of difficult circumstances in the squad.

Also true that mentality issues are largely down to players.


Going forward I have no doubt that we would be playing better next season with Coutinho available and Griezmann or someone else coming.
Remaining issue is stubbornness and fear that manifests in lack of rotations and general disregard for Barca future.

Can we find someone that is a visionare, loves Barca and is a great motivator?
 

LeeRomeno

Active member
Some statistics for those who think we have massively overplayed our players as well:
So far in La Liga our top 5 players to get gametime have been Messi (91%), Suarez (85%), Rakitic (83%), Alba (80%) and Pique (75%). The percentages in brackets show how much player has played from total possible gametime. Those numbers are not extraordinary in any way. For example last season we had top 5 with Suarez (84%), Messi (83%), Busi (79%), Neymar (78%), Roberto (70%). Year before Suarez (92%), Neymar (89%), Busi (85%), Messi (80%), Masch (79%).
All time record is Messi 2014/15 when he played 99% of available time. Same in Peps time, for example 2008/9 Xavi played 87% of all minutes, Eto 86%, Alves 86, Messi 74% and Puyol 70%.
So trend is that the starting lineup always plays 70-80% of time and superstars 80-90%. It has not been different this season.
This does not mean though that resting players in La Liga directly before important CL games would be not important, but thinking that our players have played extraordinary minutes is not correct, they have not.
 

pepi

New member
If they were not overplayed(which they were) Then its all on Valverdes tactics. BTW before the subs we had zero La Masia players on the pitch. Its happening. In a few years we will be left with Sergi only.
 

TitoTata

Banned
:goodpost:

Lack of timely rotations and bad football is something that's hard to look over.
Although, the latter, as you said, was also a byproduct of difficult circumstances in the squad.

Also true that mentality issues are largely down to players.


Going forward I have no doubt that we would be playing better next season with Coutinho available and Griezmann or someone else coming.
Remaining issue is stubbornness and fear that manifests in lack of rotations and general disregard for Barca future.

Can we find someone that is a visionare, loves Barca and is a great motivator?

and plays decent football !!

We are being outplayed week after week ..
 

TrueCule

Member
I don't care if we don't play as much as some fans expect us to play as long as that kind of strategy produces good result. And the fact is that we will probably be undefeated in La Liga and win another CdR. Winning the double in this season with invincible title in La Liga is just an incredible achievement. Even Pep's Barca wasn't undefeated. Props to EV. The decision if he's staying next season is really a no brainer one. He should stay. With some tweaks we can win the treble next season.
 

CatalinR10

Senior Member
lol @ valverde apologists

Unbeaten season so far is a lie , you can look at half of the games and see that only reason we didn't lose is because of Messi and Mats for being an out of this world goalkeeper. You look at half of the games and you wonder how we didn't lose/tie every single of those while being outplayed all the time. When was the last time we've played a really great game and dominated whole game ? I guess that's Girona in half a season.


Dude threw away the CL like it was nothing for the copa and league with playing the same old players ALL the time. Kudos to him for his impact on winning the league and maybe the cup but he would be better at Chelsea or teams as such , not at teams who have CL in their mind. I never felt so humiliated as a fan as i was at that Roma loss and it's all thanks to this coward of a coach.
 

George_Costanza

Active member
Where have I said anything about someone being bandwagoner or real fan or anything similar? How is it relevant to this topic? Also newsflash, I bet a huge majority of fans outside the local fanbase for any top squad are there because at some point of time the squad has been successful. I read an article where Leicester has now 16th biggest fanbase club in the world. Did they get that many fans because they were were mediocre Premier league team? No the got it because they won it.
There are plenty of people to follow small and midtable teams, but good luck finding a big foreign fanbase for any of those teams, as there is none, big exception is fans from smaller countries, if a good footballer joins some club. For example in Estonia there was a massive boost in Augsburg fans once national team captain Klavan joined it and all those fans are now of course Liverpool fans.
It is totally personal in how you connect to the club. Me for example cannot give a shit if Barca handball or basketball team wins or loses as i dont care about those sports. As for Barcelona and myself, I have been following the club and being fan for good 16 years now and seen it play very different style of football. Ive seen some good La Masia players coming through ranks and then also periods where 0 made it. What you speak of is myth that was based on the "golden generation" of La Masia that may very well happen once in a lifetimee that talents like Messi, Xavi, Puyol, Busi, Iniesta etc happened to emerge at the same time under a coach that took his chance well. It is incredibly foolish to think this is some sort of norm as I would be lucky to see similar thing happening in my lifetime as it did not happen in previous decades for the club. Just playing the La Masia players if the talent is not there (Like Lucho did with Sandro or Munir or Gumbau rofl) is pointless. Remember the Zidanes and Pavons strategy from Real?
Well you can talk as much as you want about the values but life makes it corrections and you need to take most of it and up until Roma game, Valverde did exactly that.

For your information, La Masia always produced good players, not neccessarily world class players like Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta but between world class and many good squad players through 80s and 90s (Guardiola, Amor, Ferrer, Milla, Barjuan, Sanz..etc just to name few). Since Sandro/Barto took over, the continual flow of talents has been so dry, and the main reason IMO is the management is prioritizing short-term success hence hiring coaches like Lucho and EV.
 

George_Costanza

Active member
Some statistics for those who think we have massively overplayed our players as well:
So far in La Liga our top 5 players to get gametime have been Messi (91%), Suarez (85%), Rakitic (83%), Alba (80%) and Pique (75%). The percentages in brackets show how much player has played from total possible gametime. Those numbers are not extraordinary in any way. For example last season we had top 5 with Suarez (84%), Messi (83%), Busi (79%), Neymar (78%), Roberto (70%). Year before Suarez (92%), Neymar (89%), Busi (85%), Messi (80%), Masch (79%).
All time record is Messi 2014/15 when he played 99% of available time. Same in Peps time, for example 2008/9 Xavi played 87% of all minutes, Eto 86%, Alves 86, Messi 74% and Puyol 70%.
So trend is that the starting lineup always plays 70-80% of time and superstars 80-90%. It has not been different this season.
This does not mean though that resting players in La Liga directly before important CL games would be not important, but thinking that our players have played extraordinary minutes is not correct, they have not.

Simple, the difference is Messi, Suarez, Busquets, Pique and Iniesta are older now. Same with Alves, Xavi and the players you mentioned under Pep, they were younger, in thier prime and much hungier for trophies.
 

LeeRomeno

Active member
Simple, the difference is Messi, Suarez, Busquets, Pique and Iniesta are older now. Same with Alves, Xavi and the players you mentioned under Pep, they were younger, in thier prime and much hungier for trophies.

Sure they are older, no one younger and better has come around though, remember the summer of 22year olds? Those players are still the starters, either we want it or not. And starters play those numbers. I would like to see coach to come to Barcelona and start benching the likes of Pique, Messi, Suarez, would not last long. Just wish the players would realize it, like in Real Ronaldo has accepted the fact he needs to play less and focus on being in shape in spring. It is pretty stupid to think players have nothing to say in this, just observe how they act if they get subbed lol.
 

LeeRomeno

Active member
For your information, La Masia always produced good players, not neccessarily world class players like Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta but between world class and many good squad players through 80s and 90s (Guardiola, Amor, Ferrer, Milla, Barjuan, Sanz..etc just to name few). Since Sandro/Barto took over, the continual flow of talents has been so dry, and the main reason IMO is the management is prioritizing short-term success hence hiring coaches like Lucho and EV.

Yes there have been periods with and without La Masia players in main squad, thats what i said. Short-term success, when you have a golden generation and potentially the best player in world history in your ranks, sounds like a reasonable strategy as well.
There is not a single player from current La Masia, who would get into the main squad at the moment. Alena is probably closest, but according to many, the benefits of him focusing on Barca B and getting consistent gametime vs sitting on bench in main squad or being somewhere on loan are there.
Also I am pretty sure that the golden generation has made many of the talents in La Masia leave as they prospect of getting to first team, when you have legends like Messi, Iniesta and others in front you are slim. Many players prefer finding their fortunes elsewhere. Pretty sure it will change once we will have to face the inevitable rebuilding of squad soon. We need to think of long-term strategy sure, signing the likes of Dembele and Coutinho and Semedo is that. All of those can have a long future in the squad as starters, but the fact one of them joined in january, other had many injuries and third one did not really fit into the squad as promised made the choice obvious.
There is a thing called patience, you will start understanding it once you age.
 

FinBarcelonafan

Well-known member
Some statistics for those who think we have massively overplayed our players as well:
So far in La Liga our top 5 players to get gametime have been Messi (91%), Suarez (85%), Rakitic (83%), Alba (80%) and Pique (75%). The percentages in brackets show how much player has played from total possible gametime. Those numbers are not extraordinary in any way. For example last season we had top 5 with Suarez (84%), Messi (83%), Busi (79%), Neymar (78%), Roberto (70%). Year before Suarez (92%), Neymar (89%), Busi (85%), Messi (80%), Masch (79%).
All time record is Messi 2014/15 when he played 99% of available time. Same in Peps time, for example 2008/9 Xavi played 87% of all minutes, Eto 86%, Alves 86, Messi 74% and Puyol 70%.
So trend is that the starting lineup always plays 70-80% of time and superstars 80-90%. It has not been different this season.
This does not mean though that resting players in La Liga directly before important CL games would be not important, but thinking that our players have played extraordinary minutes is not correct, they have not.

Well isn't that the point? Our roster was overplayed every season basically. Last year we ran out of gas vs Juventus, year earlier vs Atletico. We always play our top players too much.
 

ronniecro

Active member
it was obvious he will stay for the next season so we better prepare ourselves,we can forget about CL,real will make major moves during the summer so league won't be as easy as this year,only copa can be realistic goal for next season. great times ahead of us
 

Neymessi

Active member
First of all, nothing was wrong on big scheme of things. What majority of this forum (82% according to poll, 95% according to poll before Roma game) was doing was accepting the results and gameplay to be okay considering the circumstances and defending that view against a few lunatics who have kept raging and wishing for us to lose for entire year. Which is awful premise to being with. I don't even get this logic, you should be experiencing the happiest time of the season, after 9 months of hoping for bad results 1 bad game actually happened (okey Sevilla game was pretty horrible as well except for 5 minutes). Are you happy now? Or is there still a threat we may win a trophy or 2 this season? That must be horrible right.
You do not need to apologize for coach who up until Roma game had 1 loss for entire year. Thats just plain stupid on any level.
Football is competitive sport where results matter for vast majority of followers, that's the most important thing, always has been.
If you think otherwise, YOU ARE THE MINORITY, so get used to be treated as one and stop thinking of names for those who disagree. You are part of small angry extreme fans, who seem to be never happy with anything.
And no, you were not right all along. Roma game was totally different from anything we saw for entire year. Valverde fcked up on massive level there, in contrast with rest of season. I am pretty sure that none of the people actually thought we would drop out, even the biggest Valverde critics after first game.

Its not just this post but I see EV apologists slowly coming back. I guess it was just a one time thing after the roma loss that people ironically thought straight when angry when they said EV is a fraud.

This post sums up all the perfect bullshit one can expect an EV apologist to make which I have been reading all season.

"You are just spoilt. Ev has beeen playing us fine. Just because we aren't as good as peps barca doesn't mean we are not good" Tick

You are part of small angry extreme fans, who seem to be never happy with anything.

"We are winning so everything is fine" Tick

Football is competitive sport where results matter

nothing was wrong on big scheme of things.

You do not need to apologize for coach who up until Roma game had 1 loss for entire year.

"You are just a hater and you secretely want us to lose"

after 9 months of hoping for bad results 1 bad game actually happened (okey Sevilla game was pretty horrible as well except for 5 minutes).

Truth is we did much better this season than guys like you "predicted" or secretly hoped we'd implode.

Also lee remeno i am not a minority most barca fans want him sacked. Most acknowledge he has been playing us like shit all season. Get a reality check

And no, you were not right all along. Roma game was totally different from anything we saw for entire year. Valverde fcked up on massive level there, in contrast with rest of season.

No roma thing wasn't different at all. The only thing roma thing was different in was the played way shitty than we had been playing all season which was shit to begin with but none of us expected to be that shit. But no way were we playing fine and suddenly turned shit against roma. There was no 'contrast'. I am sorry but you specifically of all EV apologists needs to preach what I say in my sig. Get it hardwired in your brain. We were shit all season, just winning and I am 200% sure if we deservedly lost those matches you would have been saying we were shit.
 
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