Ernesto Valverde - V1

[BusiTheKing]

Off-ball movement is definitely a problem in itself, but it's very much connected to another aspect of our general expression out there, which is that in our short passing game, we play completely without courage (to recapitulate Guardiola's point in that clip from City's dressing room).

First and foremost, off-the ball movement is an issue if you're not available. There are so many moments where we have players, who albeit still-standing, actually are available to receive a short progessive pass. But because the pass is a little bit risky or because it will put the player under a bit of pressure, we opt for the safe option. Falling into this mindset has sort of a self-sustaining effect to it.

Because we so rarely play the ballsy short passes, players don't bother moving for them. Even worse, players aren't even on their toes ready to receive it. When we do play it and the player who receives it is put under immediate pressure, the movement around him happens way too late because everyone were expecting the safe pass.

In coherent teams, this subsequent movement from the 3rd person happens proactively and constantly. It's what makes the game flow when you watch teams like City. Ideally, when you receive the ball under pressure, you should already know your next move so you can execute it quickly before losing possession. This necessitates that your teammates anticipate the pass and move proactively.

We rarely play the ballsy short pass -> nobody anticipates that we play the ballsy short pass -> nobody is bothered to be ready to receive the ballsy short pass -> nobody is ready to make proactive 3rd player runs to relieve pressure -> if we do make the ballsy short pass, we lose possession -> we stop playing the ballsy short pass

The moment where it's most obvious that we suffer under this phenomenon is when we finally break it. This happens most frequently when Messi is on the ball. Suddenly we see the effect of the surrounding players actually anticipating the ballsy short pass. Because we know that Messi plays it. Suddenly we move. Suddenly paths open up, Messi slices the line, and boom, one or two other players have made 3rd man runs and are ready to link-up with the recipient. We need to have this mindset not only when Messi is on the ball, but all the fucking time.

 

[Leong157]

Off-ball movement is definitely a problem in itself, but it's very much connected to another aspect of our general expression out there, which is that in our short passing game, we play completely without courage (to recapitulate Guardiola's point in that clip from City's dressing room).

First and foremost, off-the ball movement is an issue if you're not available. There are so many moments where we have players, who albeit still-standing, actually are available to receive a short progessive pass. But because the pass is a little bit risky or because it will put the player under a bit of pressure, we opt for the safe option. Falling into this mindset has sort of a self-sustaining effect to it.

Because we so rarely play the ballsy short passes, players don't bother moving for them. Even worse, players aren't even on their toes ready to receive it. When we do play it and the player who receives it is put under immediate pressure, the movement around him happens way too late because everyone were expecting the safe pass.

In coherent teams, this subsequent movement from the 3rd person happens proactively and constantly. It's what makes the game flow when you watch teams like City. Ideally, when you receive the ball under pressure, you should already know your next move so you can execute it quickly before losing possession. This necessitates that your teammates anticipate the pass and move proactively.

We rarely play the ballsy short pass -> nobody anticipates that we play the ballsy short pass -> nobody is bothered to be ready to receive the ballsy short pass -> nobody is ready to make proactive 3rd player runs to relieve pressure -> if we do make the ballsy short pass, we lose possession -> we stop playing the ballsy short pass

The moment where it's most obvious that we suffer under this phenomenon is when we finally break it. This happens most frequently when Messi is on the ball. Suddenly we see the effect of the surrounding players actually anticipating the ballsy short pass. Because we know that Messi plays it. Suddenly we move. Suddenly paths open up, Messi slices the line, and boom, one or two other players have made 3rd man runs and are ready to link-up with the recipient. We need to have this mindset not only when Messi is on the ball, but all the fucking time.

Spot on.

 

[DonAK]

Great post @BusiTheKing

And that one is definitely on the manager, to instill that bravery, creativity and system.

That's what separates good managers from the great ones. We do have some declining players, but that doesn't mean we cannot play way better football. The manager should also be gutsy enough to bench the players underperforming, but I don't think Valverde has the personality or authority needed for that, which again is an indictment on him more than anyone else.

There's a lot of work to be done or else the outcome will be the same as last season.

The players carry their share of the responsibility, but people criminally underestimate how important a manager is when it comes to making it all work.

It's depressing to watch other teams function so well in comparison to Barca. It's not always about the personell available, but also about the manager.

 

[Laplacian]

enough of this grandpa paced football, goddammit

 

[Gaudi]

enough of this grandpa paced football, goddammit

I'll wait for my judgement, but yes, I see same old mistakes and probably same season as last one. We'll be good in the league but completely vanish in "that one game".

 

[Icarium]

We started better than last year at least. I don't want to blame Valverde for anything yet. But his subs are shit, need to improve on that. Hope he subs Suarez off until he is fit.

 

[Zidane82]

Things start at the top.

If your front line isn't moving, it's hard for the Midfield to function properly. Suarez and Messi's movement is poor as hell and it feels like a log jam when the fullbacks and Midfield are trying to push up and create attacks. You cannot do that very well if like 90 percent of your front line isn't doing much to help then it's not going to work.

Messi is Messi, he was never the most mobile guy out there. But Suarez? he's bloody awful these days. We cannot have two out of our three front players be static it just doesn't work. I'm sorry but Valverde needs to make the call here, we cannot keep playing Suarez and Messi together the way they are right now.

He will do what he always does .... Rakitic will come back into midfield ... Messi and Suarez up front and maybe even Couthino on the right wing again ...


Then just hope for some magic from Messi ....

 

[Andrew M]

I think people are getting a bit carried away. It was the first game.

 

[Zidane82]

I think people are getting a bit carried away. It was the first game.

Same old , same old ... but worse as we prob won't see Dembele start for the forseable future ..

 

[BBZ8800]

The slow passing, movement game is dangerous and I would have liked him to try to change that up this season. We played faster in the US friendly games so hopefully he employs that more.

My issue with the slow build up game is that against high intensity pressing and aggressive teams i.e. Roma, it leaves the team vulnerable to get overrun.

Because only 1 out of Messi, Suarez, Iniesta, Rakitic, Busquets, Arthur was a on a field.
When you field 3-4-5 out of them, you have no choice but to play granny-slow possession-sideway-destined-to not create any chances-and-to lose on counters-football.

I have no idea how some people expect more off the ball movement with 30 years old, slow and tired: Busi, Rakitic, Messi, Suarez.

Of course that our team was flying in friendlies with Rafinha, Roberto, Munir, Malcom and similar.
They are young, they have energy, they have way more hunger and motivation, they are willing to move off the ball... AND they didn't need to look for Messi at the edge of a box in EVERY SINGLE ACTION.

Unpopular and risky opinion: a team will play much faster in copa without Busquets, Luis and Messi on a field.
Basically, a team will play even in 433 EXACTLY how majority of you are dreaming for.

A catch 22:
1. you can't bench Messi, Luis, Busi
2. but also, you can't play fast with them on a field

3. when you have Messi, Luis, Busi, the only option is to play ugly 442
4. but people don't want to see 442
5. but, again, we can't bench any of Messi, Luis, Busi
No, go back to a point no1 and no2 again.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], it's not the age. It's the fact that we've had a bunch of poor managers post Pep. Tito, Tata, Enrique and Valverde aren't top class managers. Some would say they are more on the side of average.

When you see what managers some other teams have you realise the difference.

 

[BBZ8800]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], it's not the age. It's the fact that we've had a bunch of poor managers post Pep. Tito, Tata, Enrique and Valverde aren't top class managers. Some would say they are more on the side of average.

When you see what managers some other teams have you realise the difference.

1. who were top managers then in the last 30 years?
Only Pep, Cruijff and MAYBE Rijkaard and Van Gaal.
Why are we hiring bad managers all the time then?

2. also, other managers, except Pep, will try to introduce a different playing style.
Our board and fans don't want that.
So, basically, we can only buy coaches who will play somewhat similar to our style (even though people will say that EV is nothing like Barca. But hey, he played 433 and possession. Majority of other coaches wouldn't want to play that).
The only good coach for our style is Pep.
Other similar coaches are risky and not proven in bigger teams and their only pro is: their teams played beautiful (and they weren't winning titles).
For example, Sarri, I don't believe that he will bring titles now to Chelsea.
And I don't want to enter into a debate again: whether it is better to play beautiful and end as a 2nd in La Liga or play EV's ugly 442 and win a title.
The best option would be to play beautiful and win a title, but it is not that simple.

3. also, what other managers would you like to see here?
Sorry for mentioning the past (I don't like these type of posts from anyone), but 80% of our forum were raving about Sampaoli as our savior 2 years ago.
Weren't you one of them?

2 years later, that guy is a clown and a way weaker manager than EV with his "ugly" football.

On the other hand, maybe our players are not as good as people think.
Messi can't do anything with Argentina or on a CL level lately. With 2 different teams.
Busi & Iniesta can't do anything with Spain/Barca since 2012, more or less. 2 different teams.
Suarez is a shadow of his former self.

These guys were our core players in the last 2-3 seasons.
I mean, are we really THAT good as people think?

I still think that EV is not as bad as people think.
Imo, majority of you are overrating quality of our players.
Our old players are drained, slow grannies.
And our young guys are nowhere near as what majority of you think in terms of quality and actual end product (Dembele, Arthur, Semedo etc).

The only time EVER when 433 worked like a charm was during Pep, with a best generation ever, and all players were young.
Under Rijkaard, 433 with Ronaldinho-Etoo-Xavi-Deco-Messi won only 2 La ligas out of 5.
And 1 CL out of 5.

So, Rijkaard's era wasn't actually any better than Lucho's and EV's era, except that we played beautiful for 2 years under Rijkaard.
But, even Lucho had 12 Months of beauty...

So, my point is: who exactly was a great coach except Pep and Cruijff?
And, also, people are still comparing everything with Pep's era.
EV's Barca didn't play THAT ugly.
but we did play ugly compared to Pep's Barca.
But then again, how to replicate Pep's Barca without Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Messi, Alves?
No, Arthur, Alena, Rakitic, old Busi, old Messi won't do the trick, not even close. Even with 5 Peps on the bench.

 

[soul24rage]

As of today, I think the 4231 (busi-rakitic; dembele-messi-coutinho; suarez) is our best XI in big CL games. I'm not sure the false nine 433 will work in big CL games as I'm not sure if Messi has the energy and the mobility for that role; also I think he seems better when there is someone upfront who will occupy the CBs. The difference between this line up and last season is that we have more goal threats besides messi and suarez with dembele and coutinho. I love Iniesta, but it was clear that he was not that suited for the 4231 while he's a god in a 433. I would also take dembele over anyone who is in RW even if he has people who disagree.

BBZ is right that we are never going to drop busi or suarez for this season so let's make the best of it. Messi is always going to attract at least 2 players so it's up to coutinho and dembele to create chances by themselves and I believe they have the talent to do so. who knows how vidal is going to play in our team and all the new signings are a bit raw for me and I'm not sure they will be ready for the CL in our setup this season; maybe next season they might.

 

[DonAK]

^ One of Busquets or Rakitic need to make way for Vidal in a 4-2-3-1. We'll need his pace and energy in the midfield otherwise it'll be too slow.

 

[KingMessi]

^ One of Busquets or Rakitic need to make way for Vidal in a 4-2-3-1. We'll need his pace and energy in the midfield otherwise it'll be too slow.

Agreed. Only one of Busi/Raki should play in a two man midfield. The second player should be Arthur/Vidal.