Ernesto Valverde - V1

[George_Costanza]

I really dont mind "defending the lead" if we have to. We dont have to "control" the game because EV doesnt really know how to at all. That's not his forte at all.

But what throws me off is the fact that when he defends, he just defends with no answers. No intention to break on the counter, which could be very devastating if you have pacey players like Semedo or Dembele. This could potentially finish off opponents with ease.

But it seems like Valverde doesnt like that, and just had to pack the midfield with more midfielders and expect us to defend like a solid unit which is impossible. You are right that this sort of lineup cant "defend the lead" against teams like Liverpool or City. Roma already happened once, and it can very well happen again.

But if u sub ur fastest attacker for a slow defensive midfielder, then u cant say that's not on him who tries to see the game out defensively. We are more likely to concede without any replies which is more risky imo.

He is still very conservative in terms of coaching and tactics wise, hasnt really shown much.

Agreed, people here bringing so many odd excuses to defend EV, some of the excuses are so illogical like "we are clueless when we're pressed", isn't it the job of the manager to find a solution? The manager should prepare the players for counter-pressing. He should find a tactical solution and ask himself if the opposition pressing when we hold the ball, or when we receive the ball or they press by blocking the passing lane or pressing space... etc. A good manager will know how to prepare our players to counter each pressing style. We actually lack tactical maturity when facing such issues. Also, we lack the fluidity, we definitely have the players who can think before they get the ball but rarely implemented, my guess has to do with EV's training method, instead we have a slow team, get the ball then look for someone to pass to it. A slow possession-based game isn't the best option to play against pressing teams because players will make mistakes. Pep for example mentioned in his book he spends weeks just to learn how and what a Klopp’s team presses in different situations and Klopp always tries to tweak his pressing specifically when playing Guardiola's team.

 

[Aryagorn]

Thierry Henry is available - Fire this guy and get Titi I say

 

[Joan]

Great post. I also agree with the 3 points that you mentioned which is why I'm not exactly sure how we can deal with this problem. We aren't that good at defending deep (Mats and Messi usually masked that) and we don't have the players or the manager to be able to effectively press as a team and with intensity. The only thing we're good at is keeping possession but we need to win the ball back by either pressuring or defending deep and hope for a goalkick or a throw in.

We are good at keeping it but sooner or later we won't be able to win the ball back. It's like a reverse Barca match. But teams still find ways to score against us. If we're pushed back, then, imo, we should be able to counter them with sense, logic. Some practiced actions. We've got a solid bunch for that. Passers with outstanding vision in Messi and Coutinho, Raki who excels at transition and long balls, quick forwards in Dembele and Malcom etc. If you set goals: be in control for the whole match, never lose the ball, never allow teams to press you... it's only natural you'll fail. But instead, you can take advantage of it. Especially if all the needed resources are there.

Regarding the Valladolid match... when they pressed us, we played on counters. I can recall 2. One with Messi setting up Suarez, goal disallowed for offside. The other one being Malcom's chance. It may be Valladolid being poor, coincidence or something else. I say we wait before making definite conclusions.

Even if we drop deep, we still look vulnerable. Would adding another player to defend help lower those chances of vulnerability? If the answer is yes, then we should really try something like a 433 false 9 Messi with Dembele and Malcom on the wings and Arthur and Coutinho (players who I think can withstand the opponent's pressure) as our interiors as we can't carry both Messi and Suarez not defending in the CL. With the 433 I mentioned, at least we have an extra player who can help defend. Using the Roma game as an example, maybe the two interiors could have pressured Strootman and De Rossi to not have any space while the CBs and the pivot could have dealt with Dzeko, Shick and Radja. The fullbacks would cover Roma's wingbacks.

Historically flat 4-4-2 (which we played) was countered by 3 at the back (which they played). Later on it was countered by 4-2-3-1. Not saying they wouldn't beat us in 4-2-3-1 but it's a much better formation to deal with their setup.

Do you remember Tottenham Juve second leg? Juve won 2-1. Now, it's a very good example of this. Juve started in 4-3-3 but in possession shifted to 3-4-3 with Chiellini-Benatia-Barzagli backline in order to attack better (needed a goal). Spurs dominated the match in their 4-2-3-1, Trippier had all the space he needed after the ball was lost. Went on like that until Allegri subbed Asamoah and Licht in a formation resembling 4-2-3-1. Went on to win with Higuain's and Dybala's goals.

I usually post that tactical analysis by Nouman as I really do think that it was really more on EV than on the players. If he tried to switch something (bring Dembele or Paulinho on and switch to a 433) and still lost, then I wouldn't be that mad at him as I am right now. From the first minute to the last, we never looked in the game and that was my biggest issue.

I thought it was you but wasn't sure. Anyways, Valverde fucked up big time in Rome. I still can't believe he didn't change anything. Because it was obvious what was going on, such a simple concept which killed us in the end. But, with 3 goals advantage against an inferior side (quality wise), they shouldn't have lost.

 

[Stoichkov1]

We are good at keeping it but sooner or later we won't be able to win the ball back. It's like a reverse Barca match. But teams still find ways to score against us. If we're pushed back, then, imo, we should be able to counter them with sense, logic. Some practiced actions. We've got a solid bunch for that. Passers with outstanding vision in Messi and Coutinho, Raki who excels at transition and long balls, quick forwards in Dembele and Malcom etc. If you set goals: be in control for the whole match, never lose the ball, never allow teams to press you... it's only natural you'll fail. But instead, you can take advantage of it. Especially if all the needed resources are there.

Regarding the Valladolid match... when they pressed us, we played on counters. I can recall 2. One with Messi setting up Suarez, goal disallowed for offside. The other one being Malcom's chance. It may be Valladolid being poor, coincidence or something else. I say we wait before making definite conclusions.

Historically flat 4-4-2 (which we played) was countered by 3 at the back (which they played). Later on it was countered by 4-2-3-1. Not saying they wouldn't beat us in 4-2-3-1 but it's a much better formation to deal with their setup.

Do you remember Tottenham Juve second leg? Juve won 2-1. Now, it's a very good example of this. Juve started in 4-3-3 but in possession shifted to 3-4-3 with Chiellini-Benatia-Barzagli backline in order to attack better (needed a goal). Spurs dominated the match in their 4-2-3-1, Trippier had all the space he needed after the ball was lost. Went on like that until Allegri subbed Asamoah and Licht in a formation resembling 4-2-3-1. Went on to win with Higuain's and Dybala's goals.

I thought it was you but wasn't sure. Anyways, Valverde fucked up big time in Rome. I still can't believe he didn't change anything. Because it was obvious what was going on, such a simple concept which killed us in the end. But, with 3 goals advantage against an inferior side (quality wise), they shouldn't have lost.

Messi and Suarez aren't brilliant counterattacking players. Players like Neymar, Salah or Dembélé are brilliant at it.

Messi is more suited for possession based football and both Messi and Suarez are slow over a long distance.

The reason we failed against Roma is that midfield sucked and Messi and Suarez didn't run behind Roma defenders who were playing with a high line.

 

[Joan]

Henias, stays seated. I warned you.

I'm close to agreeing with you this time.

I really dont mind "defending the lead" if we have to. We dont have to "control" the game because EV doesnt really know how to at all. That's not his forte at all.

Agreed. Not only because of Valverde but also the team.

But what throws me off is the fact that when he defends, he just defends with no answers. No intention to break on the counter, which could be very devastating if you have pacey players like Semedo or Dembele. This could potentially finish off opponents with ease.

Again, have nothing to add. Wish he worked on that. Malcom, Dembele as quick forwards, Messi, Coutinho able to follow their runs, Raki with his long balls etc.

But it seems like Valverde doesnt like that, and just had to pack the midfield with more midfielders and expect us to defend like a solid unit which is impossible. You are right that this sort of lineup cant "defend the lead" against teams like Liverpool or City. Roma already happened once, and it can very well happen again.

But if u sub ur fastest attacker for a slow defensive midfielder, then u cant say that's not on him who tries to see the game out defensively. We are more likely to concede without any replies which is more risky imo.

Regarding the Valladolid match... first sub Dembele out for Vidal (maybe, but just maybe it was justified? tiredness?) on the pitch Messi, Suarez, Coutinho. Next sub Coutinho out for Malcom. Sorry, but it's nothing like bringing in Gomes to close the match.

Cheers.

Agreed, people here bringing so many odd excuses to defend EV, some of the excuses are so illogical like "we are clueless when we're pressed", isn't it the job of the manager to find a solution?

Lmao.

First you suppose it's an excuse and then go on a massive rant. It's not an excuse, it's what I see watching us play.

Messi and Suarez aren't brilliant counterattacking players. Players like Neymar, Salah or Dembélé are brilliant at it.

Messi is more suited for possession based football and both Messi and Suarez are slow over a long distance.

The reason we failed against Roma is that midfield sucked and Messi and Suarez didn't run behind Roma defenders who were playing with a high line.

Where did I say they were? That why I don't think counters should be our fundamental strategy or that we should build our tactics on them. But we need to work on it so to fight high pressure.

Messi doesn't even need to do that. That's why I mentioned players like Malcom and Dembele. He can pick players with passes. Like he did against Valladolid.

 

[serghei]

We need a manager who we can finally trust so we can give him full power to shape the squad in every way he sees fit. We need a summer 2008 moment imo. That new manager should have a say in future transfers and should have a big say in who leaves the club, and what roles each player will have in the team.

We need to get the next manager appointment spot on, or else there's little hope of a newer hungrier Barca. Instead, we're gonna see patchwork after patchwork, and not a new backbone for this team. We're past the point of adding bits over the old guard and that being enough for the big games. The old guard needs changing as it declined massively in terms of motivation mostly. They're also pretty old and some players have a decade of playing top football. The erosion is clearly there.

Valverde was a horrible choice for this. Conservative manager who likes to work with older players and is pretty bad when working with young talent is certainly not fit for a rebuilding phase.

 

[George_Costanza]

One thing to note about EV is does he use or get help from his assistant? I barely see him talk to Aspiazu during the game. Lucho was glued to Unzué and Pep was consulting Tito all the times during the game. I had to go to Barca official website to get to know who is his assistant.

 

[henias]

Henias, stays seated. I warned you.

I'm close to agreeing with you this time.

 

[Barcilliant]

One thing to note about EV is does he use or get help from his assistant? I barely see him talk to Aspiazu during the game. Lucho was glued to Unzué and Pep was consulting Tito all the times during the game. I had to go to Barca official website to get to know who is his assistant.

You're right. His assistant is invisible and I had no idea what his name was.

 

[BusiTheKing]

The thing about the assistant never struck me until you mentioned it. It's certainly.... strange. I wouldn't be surprised if he gives very few instructions in general.

I've noticed that different players have totally different ways of playing certain positions. What does that tell us? A coherent system is binded by aligning individual tasks and responsibilities. Of course, there should be flexibility to accomodate different individual strengths and weaknesses, but I'm talking an overall lack of recognizable similarities in running patterns. If he doesn't give those instructions, then it's impossible to coordinate and carry out a unified vision.

Lack of instructions will either get you players who are confused about what to do and hestitant in action, like Dembele or Semedo, or players who are just doing their own thing. Both are counterproductive.

 

[xXKonan]

The only time we hear from his assistant is when he talks before the game confirming the tactical formation and that's about it.

Very rarely that he's being consulted or mentioned beyond that.

 

[RMU ReBorn]

i despise Red cafe as much as anyone for their Pro Ronaldo attitude and bias . But the way they are dealing Mourinho's third season meltdown make me wonder why this forum has few lunatics who are spoiled by our golden generation . Even in that Mourinho thread most of the posters criticise Mourinho in a way that would shame some of the posters in Valverde thread . There is a difference between crticism and outright bashing and the Ev thread has been notorious for the later . Mou has won fuck all for them in his 3 seasons yet they treat him fairly well rather than calling names like fraud , coward , asshole etc .

http://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-mourinho-out-thread.441140/page-23

 

[George_Costanza]

i despise Red cafe as much as anyone for their Pro Ronaldo attitude and bias . But the way they are dealing Mourinho's third season meltdown make me wonder why this forum has few lunatics who are spoiled by our golden generation . Even in that Mourinho thread most of the posters criticise Mourinho in a way that would shame some of the posters in Valverde thread . There is a difference between crticism and outright bashing and the Ev thread has been notorious for the later . Mou has won fuck all for them in his 3 seasons yet they treat him fairly well rather than calling names like fraud , coward , asshole etc .

http://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-mourinho-out-thread.441140/page-23

 

[BusiTheKing]

He's been there two seasons and I'd say he's alright considering the squad he's had. It's not like we would have gotten anywhere near City in the PL, facing 15-20 Roma away games a season.

 

[pepi]

He won 3 trophies in 2 seasons actually. Not too bad.