Ernesto Valverde - V1

[henias]

Who's saying we should be like Atletico? I said we weren't better than Roma in the CL last season, otherwise we would've gone through. Same as Atletico.

Never did I say it was OK to lose to Roma, either.

You just answered yourself. We weren't better, not a case of Roma being too good. In fact, against Chelsea we looked doubtful if not for Dembele and Messi pulling strings. Yet, EV chose to opt out for someone who could possibly provide goals and is exactly the type of reinforcement we brought in during the summer. Not to mention, the chance to bring him in even in late 50th minute or so, but no, 85th min, while literally watching by the sidelines.

You could argue about the ranking of the teams, however the way you want to see it, but that's stll no excuse for that blatant fuck up.

What's worse is we saw the exact same mistakes this season. That's a major problem of his, not the teams anymore.

 

[Joan]

Croatia wasn't the 2nd best team in the World Cup. Just because a team manages to use the circumstances of a Cup competition and get to a stage, doesn't mean they are better than some of the teams that didn't make it that far.

Actually, that's the nature of Cup Competition. You can use the small margins to knock out better teams that show glaring weaknesses on one specific night.

Roma caught us in a very low point and knocked us out. Using that result to somehow paint a picture of Roma being such a great team that that result was somewhat normal and expected is silly. Not saying you formulated that way, but it just is.

If we are ever to reach a minimum common ground on Valverde everyone should admit that going out to that Roma team was unacceptable. And it is acceptable to go out vs a top 3-4 team in CL.

If Roma was a great team, people wouldn't be that shocked of going out vs them. Which makes that claim wrong on all levels. Actually, everybody on the forum wanted to draw Roma or Sevilla in the quarters. Why would everybody want to draw such a great team like Roma? Maybe because... you know... every other side was stronger than Roma or Sevilla? Especially considering that we had in the mix Madrid - CL holders, Juventus - Serie A champions, Bayern - German champions, City - England soon to be champions, Liverpool - most in form team at the time. Roma and Sevilla were the weakest teams in CL we could've drawn.

First of all, I'm not saying going out to Roma was acceptable. To make it completely clear.

Now, if you want to rank teams in cup competitions from the past, you can't ignore the nature of that competition. League competitions are much more fair, imo, and, assume a super league existed last season - don't think Roma would've ended 3rd or 4th. But, they did better than all the other teams bar Real and Liverpool in the CL. Just like Croatia (bar France) in the WC. Saying they were the 3rd strongest might've been wrong. All this starts with a simple assumption: the team which does the best in a certain competition wins it in the end. Sometimes it doesn't have much to do with the team's strenght.

 

[Joan]

You just answered yourself. We weren't better, not a case of Roma being too good. In fact, against Chelsea we looked doubtful if not for Dembele and Messi pulling strings. Yet, EV chose to opt out for someone who could possibly provide goals and is exactly the type of reinforcement we brought in during the summer. Not to mention, the chance to bring him in even in late 50th minute or so, but no, 85th min, while literally watching by the sidelines.

You could argue about the ranking of the teams, however the way you want to see it, but that's stll no excuse for that blatant fuck up.

What's worse is we saw the exact same mistakes this season. That's a major problem of his, not the teams anymore.

In my opinion, ranking can tell us which team did the best in certain competition. All factors included.

It's not an excuse for the night in Rome, of course not. That night was disasterous from EV. And the team too. But he had to help the team, especially with the option we had in Dembele.

 

[Ursegor]

[MENTION=12215]Ursegor[/MENTION], I'd be interested to discuss the pros and cons of Ernesto Valverde in a serious topic here on Barcaforum, without ironies like Cowardverde and such. I'd be all for that.

Just a discussion about the things he does well, the things he doesn't, aspects which are out of his control, problems in the team that aren't likely to change under future managers. State of the young players in the team.

I personally believe he is a middle of the ground manager for us. Somehwere between Lopetegui and Zidane, if we keep the Madrid comparison.

First we would have to reach an agreement over what should be the responsabilites of the manager of FC Barcelona. Do we blame him the most for disasters like the Roma away game? Do we think that the squad is built in such a way that it would be impossible to steer the ship in a different direction at this stage no matter the manager? Do we make too big of a fuss about things that are normal during a season, demanding too much from a team which, despite new signings, is still not as good as in the past?

Everybody throws ironies, names and insults, without addressing any of these issues in elaborate posts.

Valverde is a 7/10 good coach on par with the likes of Pochettino or any other good but not special coach. Right now there are only 3 coaches who could be considered a tier above (who are all not available): Pep, Simeone and Klopp. But Simeone plays eye cancer football and Klopp has won jack shit, not even a tiny Cup at Liverpool, managed to lose a final to Sevilla. But that's okay because he gets teams like Dortmund and Liverpool into CL finals and that in itself is a huge achievement even if he wins nothing at the end.

Other than that there is no one who is a tier above Valverde. Pure delusion if anyone thinks Setien will come and we'll play mindblowing football with superb rotations, great results and all the favourite B players getting playing time.

Lopetegui comparisons are a joke. Valverde succeeded in all his jobs. He took Athletic Bilbao to CL places, he took Espanyol into the EL final, he won the first title in over 30 years for Athletic Bilbao by beating Barcelona 4-0 and he won the double with Barcelona, could have gone unbeaten as well if not for rotations against Levante.

To even come up with Lopetegui's name in the Valverde thread is pure madness. The man did not manage to win jackshit with Porto, a team that had won 7 of the previous 8 league titles and did not last 2 months at Madrid. Even if Valverde lost 0-10 to Roma you can't compare to the clown that is Lopetegui.

Aspects that are out of his control: Now we can have a discussion.

First of all this squad has 2 major weaknesses and the second one amplifies the weakness of the first one.

First of all: We have no elite rightback. Roberto and Semedo are both average at best. Maybe Semedo will turn into something in the future, there are some glimpses.

And the second one: Messi does whatever he wants and 90 % of the time what he wants is roam in the center of the pitch but definitely not keep his position on the right (let's not even talk about his defensive duties). So when you have Messi and Suarez in the team, both prefering the center, who plays on the right? The only solution to this is a 4-4-2 shape (or 3-4-3 but we do not have the defenders for that at all) like Valverde did last season or 4-3-3/4-4-2 hybrid with Coutinho playing LW offensively/LM defensively.

This is completely logical, right? Unless someone thinks Suarez must be benched for Malcom and then we go 4-3-3 with Démbéle and Malcom on the wings and Messi won't be stiffled alone on top without Suarez' movement infront of him, then what I just said makes sense, correct? Yes, correct.

So I mentioned 2 major problems: No elite rightback and Messi can't be put on the right which forces us to employ a 4-4-2-ish shape.

There are more structural problems though. Coutinho is not a central midfielder. He dribbles, cuts in and and shoots all the time. There is no way you can put Coutinho in the middle 3, alongside Busquets no less who is awful in transition plus Dembélé up top who is lazy at defending and misses training sessions and expect results. No way. So one of our 100+ million Euro signings sits on the bench most of the time, mostly Dembélé, the one missing training sessions.

Tactically and formation-wise Valverde has it spot on, fans can bitch how they want, if you take 3 minutes to think about it, his formations and tactics are spot on.

He only did 1 huge mistake so far. He banked on a 4-1 lead against Roma and that by sitting back surely we would get at least 1 counter attack goal without conceding 3. He failed. Even though half the blame goes to the squad as well. Players who have won so much should show some character. Madrid were on the verge of elimination many many times but players like Ramos came up with those last minute goals to save their asses.

There are some more things but for now I leave it at that as I have to go out.

 

[khaled_a_d]

I mean Roma battered Chelsea and Atletico in the group sending Atletico to Europa but no one talks about that. Also nearly knocked out Liverpool too.

They were the better than AM, Chelsea (top of group) and were better than us and handled Liverpool better than any team in two games tie and yet people think Bayern (lol) City (big lol) or Juve were better than them last year
Roma had the best campaign of their history, we underestimated them -both fans and the club- but they played great tournament through out the whole year, was 2nd most impressive team after Liverpool and 3rd best (for me at least) in the tournament.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't have won the tie, we were shit ourselves

 

[Horatio]

Valverde is a 7/10 good coach on par with the likes of Pochettino or any other good but not special coach. Right now there are only 3 coaches who could be considered a tier above (who are all not available): Pep, Simeone and Klopp.

Exactly my view on the matter and why I refrain from attacking him at every single occasion and keep calm. Good coach, but not top tier. But then again, top tier coaches are unavailable. I would swap Simeone for Sarri though.

 

[henias]

Funny how some people would not hesitate to amplify the problems of individual players, especially those capable of clinching last minute points for Valverde. But when comes to EV's biggest problems, oh, no, no, no, we can't talk about that, even though his biggest habits is eating away the squad's potential and development. His man management has been jackshit since last season, I have talked about Coutinho's problem, but for the likes of Dembele, Malcom, literally no excuse even last season when Dembele was back from injury. Never really addressed the right flank issue, which was constantly dragged till this season. Never changed his lineup until we start struggling. All this points to how he doesn't know exactly what problems we are dealing with. Little to zero experimatations, but you have expert fans saying this will never work, that will never work without even trying. Basically the amount of injuries and "shit hits the fan" circumstances this year have forced him to make changes, otherwise he wouldn't take any risk.

If it weren't for those circumstances, we would probably hardly see the potential of Malcom, Dembele, Coutinho, Arthur, Lenglet etc. Everyone would be crucifying them by now. Last season,
Dembele was not good in defence, this season, Dembele is not good in attitude. But who found the net and pulled the club out of fire several times? Has the coach taken some responsibility in the new players? guidance, communication, yet no, no, no, we can't blame him.

Roma wasn't one incident. Same clueless without a plan B, even with more options this season, same starters that cannot come off, same conservatism until players prove him entirely wrong. Like come on, believing something will change under Valverde is believing Valverde will ever sub off Rakitic.

 

[El Gato]

Exactly my view on the matter and why I refrain from attacking him at every single occasion and keep calm. Good coach, but not top tier. But then again, top tier coaches are unavailable. I would swap Simeone for Sarri though.

Sarri has an equally well documented set of issues of chequered dealings with his higher ups, rotations and lack of pedigree to fall back on when squad goes rogue. He needs to win shit or consistently get far in the CL before he gets a shot on the elite level.

 

[Zidane82]

What if logic doesn't work with cup competitions. Was Croatia the 2nd best team the last WC? They had much easier draw. What if they played against.. say Belgium? They came 2nd, and that's the only thing that matters.

Besides, Roma bettered some of the favorites to the throne in Barca and Atletico. Do I think they were the third strongest team? No. But they did better than the rest.

England got pretty far in the World Cup soooo ....

 

[George_Costanza]

Valverde is a 7/10 good coach on par with the likes of Pochettino or any other good but not special coach. Right now there are only 3 coaches who could be considered a tier above (who are all not available): Pep, Simeone and Klopp. But Simeone plays eye cancer football and Klopp has won jack shit, not even a tiny Cup at Liverpool, managed to lose a final to Sevilla. But that's okay because he gets teams like Dortmund and Liverpool into CL finals and that in itself is a huge achievement even if he wins nothing at the end.

Other than that there is no one who is a tier above Valverde. Pure delusion if anyone thinks Setien will come and we'll play mindblowing football with superb rotations, great results and all the favourite B players getting playing time.

Lopetegui comparisons are a joke. Valverde succeeded in all his jobs. He took Athletic Bilbao to CL places, he took Espanyol into the EL final, he won the first title in over 30 years for Athletic Bilbao by beating Barcelona 4-0 and he won the double with Barcelona, could have gone unbeaten as well if not for rotations against Levante.

To even come up with Lopetegui's name in the Valverde thread is pure madness. The man did not manage to win jackshit with Porto, a team that had won 7 of the previous 8 league titles and did not last 2 months at Madrid. Even if Valverde lost 0-10 to Roma you can't compare to the clown that is Lopetegui.

Aspects that are out of his control: Now we can have a discussion.

First of all this squad has 2 major weaknesses and the second one amplifies the weakness of the first one.

First of all: We have no elite rightback. Roberto and Semedo are both average at best. Maybe Semedo will turn into something in the future, there are some glimpses.

And the second one: Messi does whatever he wants and 90 % of the time what he wants is roam in the center of the pitch but definitely not keep his position on the right (let's not even talk about his defensive duties). So when you have Messi and Suarez in the team, both prefering the center, who plays on the right? The only solution to this is a 4-4-2 shape (or 3-4-3 but we do not have the defenders for that at all) like Valverde did last season or 4-3-3/4-4-2 hybrid with Coutinho playing LW offensively/LM defensively.

This is completely logical, right? Unless someone thinks Suarez must be benched for Malcom and then we go 4-3-3 with Démbéle and Malcom on the wings and Messi won't be stiffled alone on top without Suarez' movement infront of him, then what I just said makes sense, correct? Yes, correct.

So I mentioned 2 major problems: No elite rightback and Messi can't be put on the right which forces us to employ a 4-4-2-ish shape.

There are more structural problems though. Coutinho is not a central midfielder. He dribbles, cuts in and and shoots all the time. There is no way you can put Coutinho in the middle 3, alongside Busquets no less who is awful in transition plus Dembélé up top who is lazy at defending and misses training sessions and expect results. No way. So one of our 100+ million Euro signings sits on the bench most of the time, mostly Dembélé, the one missing training sessions.

Tactically and formation-wise Valverde has it spot on, fans can bitch how they want, if you take 3 minutes to think about it, his formations and tactics are spot on.

He only did 1 huge mistake so far. He banked on a 4-1 lead against Roma and that by sitting back surely we would get at least 1 counter attack goal without conceding 3. He failed. Even though half the blame goes to the squad as well. Players who have won so much should show some character. Madrid were on the verge of elimination many many times but players like Ramos came up with those last minute goals to save their asses.

There are some more things but for now I leave it at that as I have to go out.

So much none sense in your post no wonder most EV's fanboys liked it. I will address your post later.

 

[Joan]

 

[Givenchy]

sorry but EV.. the EV? on par with Pochettino? Spurs might not be winning anything right now but Poch has transformed their players and makes them better, EV makes ours worse.

hes an average 5/10 at best and thats being kind. sure some things are out of his control.. but iirc managers are incharge of making substitutes and this fucker waited until the 81st minute to bring on Gnomes

 

[El Gato]

Such loaded statements thrown around.

sorry but EV.. the EV? on par with Pochettino? Spurs might not be winning anything right now

Ah. So trophies don't matter. Won in an opponent-less league and against pub teams in the cup. Gotcha.

(...) but Poch has transformed their players and makes them better, EV makes ours worse.

Who has he made worse? Literally no player 30+ applies here and you have about 6 or 8 of them featuring regularly, it's a natural arc to get worse at that age, particularly physically and in regard to effort, or if you were average in the first place. Semedo wasn't any better with Benfica and he's not even bad, just average. Ter Stegen improved. Arthur improved. Dembele is improving and got a start despite being fined a few days prior. No space for Coutinho anywhere in that lineup that necessitates presence of an old and slow DM so how can you judge the guys progress? So who is this you're referring to.

People still not getting a reality check and sipping that kool-aid thinking a manager with more positive football would be the fix to problems, or that top managers will (1) want to come to manage this Barca team and at the same time (2) abandon their current projects where they're getting praised for their work.

Deary me.

 

[Zidane82]

Such loaded statements thrown around.



Ah. So trophies don't matter. Won in an opponent-less league and against pub teams in the cup. Gotcha.



Who has he made worse? Literally no player 30+ applies here and you have about 6 or 8 of them featuring regularly, it's a natural arc to get worse at that age, particularly physically and in regard to effort, or if you were average in the first place. Semedo wasn't any better with Benfica and he's not even bad, just average. Ter Stegen improved. Arthur improved. Dembele is improving and got a start despite being fined a few days prior. No space for Coutinho anywhere in that lineup that necessitates presence of an old and slow DM so how can you judge the guys progress? So who is this you're referring to.

People still not getting a reality check and sipping that kool-aid thinking a manager with more positive football would be the fix to problems, or that top managers will (1) want to come to manage this Barca team and at the same time (2) abandon their current projects where they're getting praised for their work.

Deary me.

Coutinho is still only a shadow of the player of Liverpool , same with Dembele . We just picked a lucky diamond in Arthur . I give Valverde no credit at all for him .

Every player is playing under par apart from maybe Messi who sometimes doesn't even look interested occasionally.

 

[FCBfan22]

[tw]1073974718481469443[/tw]

Yeah, Messi plays on the right... 30% of the time.

Unsymethrical 4-3-3 until death it is...