Ernesto Valverde

[El Gato]

Nah, they're not winning titles anytime soon. They're too good to focus on 2nd rate trophies like Carabao Cup, and too weak to carry a fight for a highly prized title to the very end. A CL final with Tottenham considering the highly superior resources of many of their rivals is a huge achievement.

They're not too weak. They've already proved they're good enough to get to the CL final and by playing from behind. There are players there who are absolutely fit for purpose, but others need to make the transition. Final was set against them from very early on and they've historically never beaten Liverpool under Poch or otherwise in this kind of setting. That doesn't mean they can't. Nor does it mean Liverpool will be impervious at the back. We've already seen they can be shaky this season.

Spurs squad is young and dedicated, but they were too soft to make the transition. Nothing is impossible from here on, because the dynamic is completely different with Jose. They needed consistent ambitious targets and resilience, which Poch doesn't convincingly deliver. He's still too empathetic than pragmatic. With Jose it is titles NOW. Learning what to do to overcome mental blocks. Fundamental basics of squad chemistry were laid by Poch. At United Jose didn't have that, because LVG and Woodward recruitment was fucking shocking. Even during his first conference Jose correctly said: "If we win titles it is not the consequence of me - it is the consequence of the club work and the vision".

Jose is lucky, but he really really needs to be able to get the players on his side. If they're smart and they buy into it, they're absolutely capable of having the same improvement arc as Madrid from 2010-2012. It will still end the same way with Jose, he will make enemies who disagree, but it can certainly be a success story just as much as it can prove to be the nail in the coffin of Mourinho club career.

 

[serghei]

They're not too weak. They've already proved they're good enough to get to the CL final and by playing from behind. There are players there who are absolutely fit for purpose, but others need to make the transition. Final was set against them from very early on and they've historically never beaten Liverpool under Poch or otherwise in this kind of setting. That doesn't mean they can't. Nor does it mean Liverpool will be impervious at the back. We've already seen they can be shaky this season.

Spurs squad is young and dedicated, but they were too soft to make the transition. Nothing is impossible from here on, because the dynamic is completely different with Jose. They needed consistent ambitious targets and resilience, which Poch doesn't convincingly deliver. He's still too empathetic than pragmatic. With Jose it is titles NOW. Learning what to do to overcome mental blocks. Fundamental basics of squad chemistry were laid by Poch. At United Jose didn't have that, because LVG and Woodward recruitment was fucking shocking. Even during his first conference Jose correctly said: "If we win titles it is not the consequence of me - it is the consequence of the club work and the vision".

Jose is lucky, but he really really needs to be able to get the players on his side. If they're smart and they buy into it, they're absolutely capable of having the same improvement arc as Madrid from 2010-2012. It will still end the same way with Jose, he will make enemies who disagree, but it can certainly be a success story just as much as it can prove to be the nail in the coffin of Mourinho club career.

Trump will love Mexicans by the time we agree on something.

Pochettino got them about as far as their stature as a club allows them to get.

 

[El Gato]

Trump will love Mexicans by the time we agree on something.

Pochettino got them about as far as their stature as a club allows them to get.

Well that's because you, correct me if I'm wrong, seem to think stature determines whether players or clubs are able to win a title. I don't. Every club, built using a good generation & appropriately recruited players, can have its time.

A lot of the ingredients are in place for him. I wouldn't even be surprised if those disputing their contracts are actively rethinking their future right now. Dynamic has shifted massively. This and the next month is Jose's opportunity to bring everyone on side.

 

[KingLeo10]

Poch should have won SOMETHING during his tenure at Spurs. They had a top 4 squad the last 3 years in my estimation. How many consecutive FA cup semi final or final losses was it? 5?

He's a good manager but IMO, not a through and through winner. Still would take him in a heartbeat over EV who's neither a winner nor able to play inspiring football. The elite for me is still only Pep and Klopp. Only those 2 are guaranteed success at Barca.

Poch is in the mix with Ancelotti, Ten Hag and the like in the next rung.

 

[serghei]

Well that's because you, correct me if I'm wrong, seem to think stature determines whether players or clubs are able to win a title. I don't. Every club, built using a good generation & appropriately recruited players, can have its time.

A lot of the ingredients are in place for him. I wouldn't even be surprised if those disputing their contracts are actively rethinking their future right now. Dynamic has shifted massively. This and the next month is Jose's opportunity to bring everyone on side.

A Champions League final is an immense achievement. Not since the 2004 final a club like Tottenham made it (Monaco). Look at Ernie trying to get into one and failing miserably with a much better team.

What are the finalists in those 15 years?

Liverpool, Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, Inter Milano, Juventus, Chelsea, Manchester United. All are bigger clubs and better teams that Tottenham.

 

[DonAK]

So what else is new since 2012?

Not much, but there's always hope something will change.

 

[serghei]

Basically, Wolfe, to cut the story short and save both of us some time, I think it's unfair to blame Pochettino for not pulling off some Rocky Balboa type of shit, by carrying this good, but not great Tottenham side to the highest peaks.

He took them far, as much as he could. A CL final is worth a lot more than some Carabao Cup, Europa League, FA Cup or whatever. So if Mourinho doesn't somehow win the Premier League or the Champions League with Tottenham, he'd have done less than Pochettino.

 

[El Gato]

A Champions League final is an immense achievement. Not since the 2004 final a club like Tottenham made it (Monaco). Look at Ernie trying to get into one and failing miserably with a much better team.

What are the finalists in those 15 years?

Liverpool, Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, Inter Milano, Juventus, Chelsea, Manchester United. All are bigger clubs and better teams that Tottenham.

I didn't say it wasn't. That's not their ambition though and it is entirely possible to make a club bigger through continuous executive progress. Nor do I really understand how any of this reinforces the point you made which is that if you're a smaller club you're not going to win a title, or titles.

Chelsea were an FA Cup team prior to Roman takeover, won 1 league title in the '50s. One manager and a bag of money made the difference.

United are not a better team and won't be for at least a few years.

Porto and Monaco aren't nearly as big and they did it where circumstances allowed it. In the same year Deportivo would have arguably done it to culminate the generation fathered by Irureta, while historically being as big as Spurs are now. It is possible. And 1 win has a potential to push the team into greener pastures. Atletico would have never been back in contention if they hadn't beaten Madrid in the Copa in 2013.

Nor did I imply Pochettino's work was easier than what Mourinho now has been brought in to do. Point being Spurs winning titles isn't meant to highlight his failures, it's only a requirement to making Spurs a bigger club. A position which is ripe for taking given Arsenal's attraction is waning with every year.
When I said they have the right to be miffed about not winning, it's a simple statement of fact. They were as strong if not stronger in 2016 than those they conceded a title to. Failures cannot be omitted, it's what makes Poch what he is.

 

[Neymessi]

People must be joking if they are blaming Poch for spurs not winning a title. Spurs were never title material to begin with but he took them to some real highs which they would not have otherwise accomplished.

People started considering spurs a top club that couldn't win trophies but that perception of it being a top club was thanks to Poch itself. Their management have gotten way ahead of themselves by sacking him. A CL final is something they weren't anywhere near good at and Poch was a massive reason to that.

 

[The Observer]

Poch had little to do with Spurs reaching the CL final. His team was 3 goals down with 35 minutes left out of 145 minutes played against an Eredivisie team. Got outplayed badly in groups (2-4 vs. Barca at home), badly vs. City (one year earlier without VAR they are out), made Ajax look like prime Barca on their own turf (Lucas Moura individual hattrick saving Spurs) and finally had nothing to show against Liverpool. Very little coaching genius shown. About as much fluke as Chelsea 2012. People doubling down on their agendas with incohorent correlations.

Their domestic form was also nothing special. Finished 5 points above a garbage Manchester United team last season, 1 point above an equally garbage Arsenal team and finished below a garbage United team the year before. Didn't win a single domestic Cup before crashing down this season (14th place right now in the table, 1-7 against Kovac's Bayern on their own home turf). Suspect hype around the guy, same tier as Emery with a better team.

 

[George_Costanza]

Came in expecting absurd and illogical post by [MENTION=16313]The Observer[/MENTION], left satisfied.

 

[Barcilliant]

I think Mourinho will surprise people at Spurs. The squad is decent and bar Kane don't have any superstars.

If Mourinho can get them to buy into his philosophy I think they will do well.

 

[serghei]

I think Mourinho will surprise people at Spurs. The squad is decent and bar Kane don't have any superstars.

If Mourinho can get them to buy into his philosophy I think they will do well.

Legitimately 50-50. No middle ground that's for sure. Middle ground is failure for Mourinho. Risky decision for him, so his pride and hunger is still bigger than his sense of reason and security.

 

[DonAK]

While Tottenham don't have great depth, their squad is better than Man Utd's and more suited to Mourinho's football if he decides to go back to what made his Real Madrid click.

He need to be more supportive and less negative though. His "The entire World is against us" schtick doesn't work anymore.

 

[serghei]

While Tottenham don't have great depth, their squad is better than Man Utd's and more suited to Mourinho's football if he decides to go back to what made his Real Madrid click.

He need to be more supportive and less negative though. His "The entire World is against us" schtick doesn't work anymore.

That and then some. Some pluses, sure, great squad for a Mou reactive side, but a lot to fix.

Mentality, defense, club policies, insane rivals. 4 really rough hurdles to get past to. Journey's exciting that is for sure.