Ernesto Valverde

[Messigician]

He's the master

 

[vegitot]

Every team loses, sometimes very badly, but our downfall started with this man, well probably Luis last season actually, but then he came in as a new coach & instead of making changes, he was a yes man is entire time here, which slowly but surely brought us to where we are today.

The bartomeu & yes man valverde combo ruined us, sure we lost before him, every single team has had bad loses, but even with our bad loses no one thought of us as pussies, so a list of loses means nothing really but when you have a board that's incompetent & a coach that's a yes man, it just becomes a cycle.

So how do you expect him do his work freely with a board that control everything and manage club badly??? How can you make a change when your board don't allow?

Strong Koeman failed badly. Is he a yes man coach???

 

[vegitot]

Yep 100% the main culprit, which he is no club with a reputation will touch him, he had a few supporting characters though.

Funny.

Barca lost under EV: 100% coach faults, players and the board had nothing to do with it

Now: Blame players and the board, also coach if he is named Koeman.

What's next?

 

[khaled_a_d]

Every team loses, sometimes very badly, but our downfall started with this man, well probably Luis last season actually, but then he came in as a new coach & instead of making changes, he was a yes man is entire time here, which slowly but surely brought us to where we are today.

What is a yes man?
Should EV resign and pay his own release clause to be a courage coach and not a yes man? Sacrifice his own career for the holiness of Barca?
Again, we lost with 0-3 & 0-4 one season prior, we had a board that refused to embrace rebuild, we have a team that lost its 2nd best player in the market and its best defender due to injuries.
And during that time, what players did they brought to him? How many of our squad was brought between 2016-2018 that actually lasted till now and proved to be long term options?
Currently only players signed during that timeline who are still here are Umtiti, Coutinho, Dembele & Lenglet. Non who are really even good player for this awful current Barca. Only Dembele deserve a starting place due to lack of alternatives and he is extremely injury prone. Umtiti, Coutinh are finished and Lenglet was back up at best, he was even signed as back up and Umtiti's knee forced him to be starter.

So again, enlighten me how he should have made changes?

 

[BBZ8800]

Every team loses, sometimes very badly, but our downfall started with this man

Yeah.

A poor guy EV instructed Lucho's team (even though EV wasn't the coach at a time) to play like shit in 2016 and 2017/18.
In 2016, they almost blew 15 points advantage over RM.
In 2017, they lost La Liga.

In 2016 and 2017, they had a magical trio of historical trashing in a CL more or less without a single shot cretead:
Atletico 2:0
Psg 4:0
Juve 3:0

Naughty guy EV.
Gorcing our team to play like shit even though he will take over 24 Months later.
Awesome.

 

[Laplacian]

Yeah.

A poor guy EV instructed Lucho's team (even though EV wasn't the coach at a time) to play like shit in 2016 and 2017/18.
In 2016, they almost blew 15 points advantage over RM.
In 2017, they lost La Liga.

In 2016 and 2017, they had a magical trio of historical trashing in a CL more or less without a single shot cretead:
Atletico 2:0
Psg 4:0
Juve 3:0

Naughty guy EV.
Gorcing our team to play like shit even though he will take over 24 Months later.
Awesome.

Yes, the team was in need of a major ravamp since 2015/2016. You're correct. Don't forget though, that includes Rakitic. He, being a part of the starting midfield trio, was one of the main reasons why our creativity and ability to penetrate defenses was so bad against the top teams in Europe.

Let's see how you cope against that and turn around and blame the best attackers in Europe instead.

 

[vegitot]

Yes, the team was in need of a major ravamp since 2015/2016. You're correct. Don't forget though, that includes Rakitic. He, being a part of the starting midfield trio, was one of the main reasons why our creativity and ability to penetrate defenses was so bad against the top teams in Europe.

Let's see how you cope against that and turn around and blame the best attackers in Europe instead.

Rakitic's job is sacrifice his legs for the team. It's not like he played as the main source of creativity from midfield. Lucho tried to enhance the midfield but he brought Gomes, Denis...

 

[BBZ8800]

Yes, the team was in need of a major ravamp since 2015/2016. You're correct. Don't forget though, that includes Rakitic. He, being a part of the starting midfield trio, was one of the main reasons why our creativity and ability to penetrate defenses was so bad against the top teams in Europe.

Let's see how you cope against that and turn around and blame the best attackers in Europe instead.

I'll continue my idea from Xavi's topic about Pep.

You say that we lacked creativity in midfield.
A million dollar question: how many times in our 120 years long history we had a creative/dominating midfield paired with good results?

I'll help you: during Pep.

Van Gaal played differently.
Rijkaard won a CL with Edmilson, Motta, Van Bommel, Deco, Iniesta. Xavi was injured.
So, 3 guys with wood instead of feet.

So, we need to revamp, blah blah, we need to go back to our roots, blah blah.
Did we ever played BOTH eye pleasing and were dominating:
1. without Messi
2. without Xavi-Iniesta in a team

So, what exactly are we chasing?
What level are we trying to reach?
What level of domination and eye beauty are we trying to replicate?

And then people wonder why we change 10 coaches and 50 players, yet we play equally as bad all the time.

The answer = maybe it is impossible to replicate that what we are chasing adn we are falling exactly because we are trying to replicate the style who was built around 3 greatest players in our history.
The only options are:
1. a budget Barca, what we have lately. Who is a shitty copy of Pep's Barca in terms of players and tactics
2. or turn the page and try something new and forget: I want my Barca (Pep's style) back

Pep is the only one who can replicate his style, but even he himself can't do shit in Europe with his style without prime Messi-Xavi.

A hint for the future: let's ask the crystal ball how Xavi's team will look like = more or less exactly the same like all Barcas after 2013.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Yes, the team was in need of a major ravamp since 2015/2016. You're correct. Don't forget though, that includes Rakitic. He, being a part of the starting midfield trio, was one of the main reasons why our creativity and ability to penetrate defenses was so bad against the top teams in Europe.

Let's see how you cope against that and turn around and blame the best attackers in Europe instead.

And who did we bring to replace Rakitic?
Denis, Gomes, Paulinho, Arthur, Vidal & Frenkie were our midfield signings between 2016 and 2020 when he left.
Only one who was actually better was FDJ and he replaced Rakitic into starting line up.

 

[Laplacian]

And who did we bring to replace Rakitic?
Denis, Gomes, Paulinho, Arthur, Vidal & Frenkie were our midfield signings between 2016 and 2020 when he left.
Only one who was actually better was FDJ and he replaced Rakitic into starting line up.

This isn't a retort. Just because his intended replacements weren't good enough doesn't mean Rakitic was. The issue wasn't the attack, considering Suarez, Messi, and Neymar was the second or first (depending on who you ask) best trio in Europe. Loads of individual talent there. The issue was the midfield and to a lesser extent the defense. Iniesta, Busquets, and Rakitic all needed to go; or at the very least needed to be benched for much better players. We couldn't control games, we couldn't effectively press because we were too slow, and our creativity was shit. Rakitic's inability to resist the press with technique, and reliably pass in between the lines in quick tempo games was consistently exploited for several years. It was common to see him constantly making errors against the best teams in Europe. He was the main reason we went from being able to controlling and dictating games from midfield to constantly losing the midfield to subsequently bypassing it and depending on the forwards even more. Pre and post Valverde.

If BBZ wants to blame the players, then he has turn his eyes against Rakitic. He won't though, cause he's CroAtIaN. Instead he'll blame the best players of the 2010s.

 

[BBZ8800]

[MENTION=22863]Laplacian[/MENTION], you didn't reply: when had we ever have a good midfield except around Xavi-Iniesta-Pep days?

So, Raki was not good for us, fine.

Name me 5 midfielders ever who played for us, who were a success for our style, except Busi-Xavi-Iniesta.

You can't.
Exactly.

1. either Raki isn't that bad
2. or no one is ever even close to Pep's midfield level, yet we will chase his ghosts forever

 

[Messigician]

[MENTION=22863]Laplacian[/MENTION], you didn't reply: when had we ever have a good midfield except around Xavi-Iniesta-Pep days?

So, Raki was not good for us, fine.

Name me 5 midfielders ever who played for us, who were a success for our style, except Busi-Xavi-Iniesta.

You can't.
Exactly.

1. either Raki isn't that bad
2. or no one is ever even close to Pep's midfield level, yet we will chase his ghosts forever

Hagi, Deco, Yaya Toure, Edgar, Mascherano ( ok he played CB)

Any of these 3 combinations in their prime would give Xavi Busquets Iniesta a game imo

 

[Laplacian]

[MENTION=22863]Laplacian[/MENTION], you didn't reply: when had we ever have a good midfield except around Xavi-Iniesta-Pep days?

So, Raki was not good for us, fine.

Name me 5 midfielders ever who played for us, who were a success for our style, except Busi-Xavi-Iniesta.

You can't.
Exactly.

1. either Raki isn't that bad
2. or no one is ever even close to Pep's midfield level, yet we will chase his ghosts forever

I love the mental gymnastics. I never said anything about reaching Pep's Barcelona's level of midfield play. I'll repeat it once again: you're relieving Valverde of fault by placing the blame on the players. I agreed with you. The issue is is that you (and everyone else) can't really say we lost [X] games because the best forwards in Europe weren't good enough. You know that the issue lied in midfield and defense. The fun part, which I pointed out, is that you're explicitly placing blame on a group of players whilst also protecting them because one of them happens to be Croatian. The players weren't good enough and pretty much past it, but when Rakitic's name comes up suddenly the fans' expectations are unrealistic for trying to "chase Pep's shadows." It's just a clear illustration of your cognitive dissonance.

 

[serghei]

It's obvious that both the manager and the players are responsible when epic bottle jobs happen, not to mention when they happen in back-to-back years. You can't just wash EV of all his mistakes and blame it all on the players. It's not how it works.

EV had clearly prioritized being comfortable at Barca, made very little effort to tackle important team issues that dragged us back even under Lucho. Basically, EV did everything to not cause conflicts in the team, this included glossing over problems and even pretending they don't exist when asked about them.

The manager's role is not to be liked by the players, but also to impose his authority and look to correct team problems even if that leads to conflict with some big shots in the locker room.

 

[Rassvet]

Valverde was apparently Villarreal's first choice to replace Emery if he'd go to Newcastle but he's staying now.

Valverde to Newcastle would be great instead then