Francesc "Tito" Vilanova

[Stric]

What I remember most are the 100 points that Tito had in one season. With a team that could not win the Liga the year before.
I know that he couldn't win the big matches but you can't really count the CL ties because he was not on the training ground or the bench.
But it was his first year being the boss and no one knows how much he could've learned and adapted in the years after.

He also didn't win any of the Clasicos. Tata won both, against a much superior RM.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

I know and as I said we don't know if he could've adapted in the seasons after. It's not easy to play against Mourinho and a side that played against your team that has basically the same squad as in the season before. So Real was well prepared.
But a loss in El Clasico is not that bad when you manage to win the league by a margin of 15 points.

 

[darthvader7888]

Last season was better than this one (though not by all that much), but imo Tata's a better coach than Tito was.

Also, we were way more consistent last season than this season, but I'd say our peak form this season was better. We actually did well in big games (though not all of them) this time around.

Still, Tata has made some shit decisions. And his lack of balls to go against the wishes of the media, the board and (supposedly) Xavi and the players is a problem. He's not the answer imo.

 

[Cule4life]

That's true (not the part about him being fantastic, though), but it also depends very much on the person's attitude. Tito's attitude hardly gave an impression of him being able to make significant progress. He made excuses and made some silly statements during his season as coach. Tata is at least the kind of guy who knows when shit is not working, and has the balls to admit it. Do you remember the discussions we had after pretty much every game last season? Tito was just as frustrating as Tata is. Except with Tata we have some reason to believe he's doing a big part of it against his own will. Tito was just stubborn. Remember how he consistently played Iniesta on the left wing even about 2 months after it completely stopped working? How he played Alves for I think 11 or 12 games straight when he was badly underperforming? Or when he gave Bartra a whopping total of 87 minutes until March or April, and played Song/Adriano as CBs?

The truth is, Tata was far unluckier than Tito in terms of injuries and the general state of the club/team and its opponents. Also, Real Madrid spent the first half of 12/13 playing like a Segunda team, which widened the gap.

My words exactly

Tata is better than Tito. Just that Tata cant handle the pressure of working at such a volatile club like ours. He would do well at club where he is backed by the management and given freedom to make his decisions.

 

[Ursegor]

That's true (not the part about him being fantastic, though), but it also depends very much on the person's attitude. Tito's attitude hardly gave an impression of him being able to make significant progress. He made excuses and made some silly statements during his season as coach. Tata is at least the kind of guy who knows when shit is not working, and has the balls to admit it. Do you remember the discussions we had after pretty much every game last season? Tito was just as frustrating as Tata is. Except with Tata we have some reason to believe he's doing a big part of it against his own will. Tito was just stubborn. Remember how he consistently played Iniesta on the left wing even about 2 months after it completely stopped working? How he played Alves for I think 11 or 12 games straight when he was badly underperforming? Or when he gave Bartra a whopping total of 87 minutes until March or April, and played Song/Adriano as CBs?

The truth is, Tata was far unluckier than Tito in terms of injuries and the general state of the club/team and its opponents. Also, Real Madrid spent the first half of 12/13 playing like a Segunda team, which widened the gap.

And here was I thinking the Barca game would be the worst thing I would have to see today. How wrong I was.

So basically you lean towards Martino because he says that he was crap after reaching a crap 3th place in La Liga. And because he gave Bartra more playing time. And because you hated Tito's utilization of Alves although Martino uses him just as much right now with his crappy crosses and non-defending acts like today. And Tata "knows when shit is not working" and that's why he used the exact same lineup in every single big game this season, even when Simeone publicly stated that Neymar is harder to defend on the left than on the right and Tata didn't care and came up with the same gameplan in the return leg. But Tito used Iniesta "2 months after it stopped working" although he didn't do that at all and played 4-3-3 with Alexis and Pedro on the wings against PSG and Bayern and 4-3-3 with Villa and Pedro upfront against Milan for example.

Tito will go down as one of the greatest coaches in Barca's history. A lot darker times will come than CL and CdR semi-finals and a 100 point season. That much is a guarantee. How many minutes he gave Bartra or Alves and who he used as a CB will be utterly irrelevant in the history books.

 

[Cule4life]

And here was I thinking the Barca game would be the worst thing I would have to see today. How wrong I was.

So basically you lean towards Martino because he says that he was crap after reaching a crap 3th place in La Liga. And because he gave Bartra more playing time. And because you hated Tito's utilization of Alves although Martino uses him just as much right now with his crappy crosses and non-defending acts like today. And Tata "knows when shit is not working" and that's why he used the exact same lineup in every single big game this season, even when Simeone publicly stated that Neymar is harder to defend on the left than on the right and Tata didn't care and came up with the same gameplan in the return leg. But Tito used Iniesta "2 months after it stopped working" although he didn't do that at all and played 4-3-3 with Alexis and Pedro on the wings against PSG and Bayern and 4-3-3 with Villa and Pedro upfront against Milan for example.

Tito will go down as one of the greatest coaches in Barca's history. A lot darker times will come than CL and CdR semi-finals and a 100 point season. That much is a guarantee. How many minutes he gave Bartra or Alves and who he used as a CB will be utterly irrelevant in the history books.

Are you that naive to think that Tata suddenly gave up his vertical football where we ceded possession in the first half of the season coincidentally around the same time when there was an alleged "meeting" with Xavi?

Regarding Tito

Iniesta on the LW was only abandoned after the thrashings handed by Madrid and Milan when fans were calling it to be scrapped since months.

Villa was criminally underused by Tito when he was in form after coming back from his injury. Just check out his thread at the time. All the discussion was around why he is not playing ahead of a midfielder in Iniesta on the wing and "couldnt score in a brothel" wingers Pedro and Alexis. You talk about him using Villa against Milan? What happened in the next match? He went back to the bench. And he brought Villa on against Bayern in the 80th minute when we were down 4-0 and it was all over. So much for tactical flexibility.

Your mortal enemy Cesc was indulged by Tito despite him flopping like usual against any half decent team. You blame Tata for playing Cesc repeatedly (when he was clearly doing that against his will as Xavi wanted more midfield control) yet you say nothing about Tito.

Current Barca performances are useless to analyze. This team was broken after the defeat to Atletico. Neither Tata nor the players nor the board gives a shit at this point.

Atleast Tata tried to do something different. Tito played the same XI every match. There were no tactics. Just Messi's individual brilliance bailed us out many time. My grandmother could do that

 

[Ursegor]

I would also like to add that Martino did not face a better Madrid side than Tito. The first time Martino beat them Ancelotti didn't even know what formation to use (Ramos in midfield, Bale unfit). The second time he tried to take the game to Barca and attack which gave Messi oceans of space between the lines. Only the 3th time did he do what Mourinho did all the time against Barca: sit back and counter. And guess what? We lost. Ancelotti has his tactics figured out now against possession teams. Soaking up pressure and counterattacking exactly like against Bayern and in the CdR. Can Martino beat that? Given that it is the same template Atletico Madrid are using and he hasn't beaten Atletico in 5 attempts, I have my reservations.

 

[Cule4life]

I would also like to add that Martino did not face a better Madrid side than Tito. The first time Martino beat them Ancelotti didn't even know what formation to use (Ramos in midfield, Bale unfit). The second time he tried to take the game to Barca and attack which gave Messi oceans of space between the lines. Only the 3th time did he do what Mourinho did all the time against Barca: sit back and counter. And guess what? We lost. Ancelotti has his tactics figured out now against possession teams. Soaking up pressure and counterattacking exactly like against Bayern and in the CdR. Can Martino beat that? Given that it is the same template Atletico Madrid are using and he hasn't beaten Atletico in 5 attempts, I have my reservations.

With this team and tactics nobody can. The whole philosophy of Tiki Taka against defensive teams is under question. Bayern with their "tall players" also lost. IMO Tiki Taka in its present form doesnt work. People will say "Oh but we havent been playing Tiki Taka for many years", but IMO its a case of teams knowing how to close down spaces and not falling for those triangles and off the ball movement. Why keep persisting with an ideology if its not working for you? More variation is needed. Tata knew that and wasnt allowed to make those changes as it was blasphemy for Xavi to cede possession and Xavi gets what he wants at this club.

 

[Paganinisrvnge]

That's true (not the part about him being fantastic, though), but it also depends very much on the person's attitude. Tito's attitude hardly gave an impression of him being able to make significant progress. He made excuses and made some silly statements during his season as coach. Tata is at least the kind of guy who knows when shit is not working, and has the balls to admit it. Do you remember the discussions we had after pretty much every game last season? Tito was just as frustrating as Tata is. Except with Tata we have some reason to believe he's doing a big part of it against his own will. Tito was just stubborn. Remember how he consistently played Iniesta on the left wing even about 2 months after it completely stopped working? How he played Alves for I think 11 or 12 games straight when he was badly underperforming? Or when he gave Bartra a whopping total of 87 minutes until March or April, and played Song/Adriano as CBs?

The truth is, Tata was far unluckier than Tito in terms of injuries and the general state of the club/team and its opponents. Also, Real Madrid spent the first half of 12/13 playing like a Segunda team, which widened the gap.

Don't forget the statement about how he didn't care about Thiago's buyout clause and he would play who he wanted to play even after the league was won. I still don't understand why he didn't want to ensure Thiago stayed at the club and show him some faith. We REALLY could've used Thiago this season. The only thing I will admit is that he seems to be injury prone but still would've been useful.

 

[Ursegor]

Are you that naive to think that Tata suddenly gave up his vertical football where we ceded possession in the first half of the season coincidentally around the same time when there was an alleged "meeting" with Xavi?

I'm glad Xavi told him to cut the crap if that is actually true. As a senior and club captain it's his duty to speak for the team. I'm certain he expressed his concerns and ideas in a respectful manner and didn't put a knife on his throat. This squad doesn't have the resources to play "vertical football". Maybe offensively. But defensively ceding possession is suicide. Xavi is old, Cesc is slow, Busquets is slow, Iniesta is weak, defense is weak, attackers are midgets and a CF doesn't exist. Fighting for second balls, closing down spaces, winning aerial balls. We can't do any of that. Against Ajax I've seen Barca outplayed for the first time since I don't know when. Outplayed as in "opponent running rings and stringing passes together for fun around Barca's midfield". Valdes had to be MOTM in many games at the start of the season. If Xavi stopped all of that: Well done, Xavi.

Regarding Tito. It does my head in the kind of stuff people care about so much. Who cares how much Tito used Villa? Villa is finished. Simeone doesn't use him either nor will del Bosque this summer. He served his purpose against Milan as a decoy and in La Liga as an impact sub a few times.

Tito didn't indulge Cesc. Didn't you hear what Cesc himself had to say? He was unhappy being on the bench under Tito in important games and feels more responsible under Tata.

"Messi's individual brilliance." Another one who doesn't understand the difference between choreographed movements through the middle that utilize Messi's strengths and getting the ball out wide and sending crosses in like an ordinary team. Since last season the crossing rate of this team has gone up by 27 %. OPTA fact. Obviously "Messi's individual brilliance" doesn't bail the team out anymore. Messi is inhuman but even he can't reach Alves' crosses.

 

[Stric]

And here was I thinking the Barca game would be the worst thing I would have to see today. How wrong I was.

So basically you lean towards Martino because he says that he was crap after reaching a crap 3th place in La Liga. And because he gave Bartra more playing time. And because you hated Tito's utilization of Alves although Martino uses him just as much right now with his crappy crosses and non-defending acts like today. And Tata "knows when shit is not working" and that's why he used the exact same lineup in every single big game this season, even when Simeone publicly stated that Neymar is harder to defend on the left than on the right and Tata didn't care and came up with the same gameplan in the return leg. But Tito used Iniesta "2 months after it stopped working" although he didn't do that at all and played 4-3-3 with Alexis and Pedro on the wings against PSG and Bayern and 4-3-3 with Villa and Pedro upfront against Milan for example.

Tito will go down as one of the greatest coaches in Barca's history. A lot darker times will come than CL and CdR semi-finals and a 100 point season. That much is a guarantee. How many minutes he gave Bartra or Alves and who he used as a CB will be utterly irrelevant in the history books.

I'm not leaning towards anyone, Tata's decisions have been absolute shit. But that doesn't mean Tito was any better.

And you forgot to mention the brilliant two legs against Bayern. That will also go down in history, for sure.

 

[Cule4life]

@Ursegor you are treading into Jamdav territory.

Did we face resurgent Real and Atletico sides last season? No the league was won by December. There was no pressure on the team in the league. Against any half decent team we struggled. Does being outplayed to you just mean teams dominating our midfield and stringing pretty passes together and not being killed on the counter? (Xavi is that you?)

You say we cant play vertical football as we dont have the personnel. So what has your beloved Tiki Taka achieved us this season? Players cant unlock defenses with Tiki Taka hence they are resorting to crosses out of frustration. If you think vertical/direct football just means hoof the ball and crossing i dont have anything to say too to other than that you are ignorant. Tata's football was working. Again you come up with meaningless excuses to defend Xavi. Since you are so fixated with results compare what happened after that "meeting". Our play deteriorated and we cant even beat Granada or Getafe.

Cesc always complains when he is benched instead of admitting hes not good enough and shutting up and working hard. The pity is that he wasnt benched sooner by both Tata and Tito. Thats just the way in this club. When something goes wrong Cesc is the sacrificial lamb as Xavi is a holy cow and cant be touched.

Regarding Villa. Dont compare his present form now. He was in form then. Plus the point is not even about Villa. Its that Tito never played players on merit and form. He played the same XI every match like Tata. He made Thiago leave who would instantly improve our team now as he didnt play player based on "contracts". But i maybe wrong here as according to zubi getting 25m for a "benchwarmer" is great. So i will cede this point to you

Where were these "choreographed moments" of Tito's team when we were struggling against any half decent side? We were just flat track bullies under Tito.(As you so fondly label Cesc as)

 

[Ursegor]

With this team and tactics nobody can. The whole philosophy of Tiki Taka against defensive teams is under question. Bayern with their "tall players" also lost. IMO Tiki Taka in its present form doesnt work. People will say "Oh but we havent been playing Tiki Taka for many years", but IMO its a case of teams knowing how to close down spaces and not falling for those triangles and off the ball movement. Why keep persisting with an ideology if its not working for you? More variation is needed. Tata knew that and wasnt allowed to make those changes as it was blasphemy for Xavi to cede possession and Xavi gets what he wants at this club.

"Tiki-taka" doesn't work because we don't play it properly anymore. Tempo variations, one-twos, probing and moving the ball quickly from side to side to provoke a gap and tire the opponent out, choreographed combinations through the center, high pressure. None of that is there. We've only seen glimpses against Atletico Madrid in Camp Nou after Cesc went off. That was old school Barca. Nowadays Xavi gets the ball, plays a long diagonal to Neymar who then tries to dribble his way into the box. Alternative: Ball goes wide to Alves who crosses it into the box. Rinse-repeat.

How do you want to beat Real Madrid by "ceding possession"? They are the masters of this playing style with the ultimate counterattacking players. Ronaldo, Bale, Di Maria, athleticism in midfield and defense. It's a weak idea to try to "out-vertical" them. They are faster, taller, stronger. However lots of their central players struggle against movement, pressure and quick combinations (Ramos, Pepe, Alonso in particular). But we don't do that. Neither did Bayern.

 

[Flavia]

I was very critical of Tito, but his Barça was superior to Tata's, when playing at their best. At least until he relapsed.
His team didn't beat rm in the league, but the loss to bayern and to rm in cdr and the return leg of the league was after his disease, so we'll never know. He still managed to get to 100 points, which means the team won matches they lost/drew with Tata.

And winning the league is an achievement, even with Messi in super human mode. Tata disconfigured the team completely in the 2nd half of the season, whatever was the reason. Tito made Thiago leave. Neither was a brilliant coach, anyway. Lots of problems with both tenures.

 

[Cule4life]

"Tiki-taka" doesn't work because we don't play it properly anymore. Tempo variations, one-twos, probing and moving the ball quickly from side to side to provoke a gap and tire the opponent out, choreographed combinations through the center, high pressure. None of that is there. We've only seen glimpses against Atletico Madrid in Camp Nou after Cesc went off. That was old school Barca. Nowadays Xavi gets the ball, plays a long diagonal to Neymar who then tries to dribble his way into the box. Alternative: Ball goes wide to Alves who crosses it into the box. Rinse-repeat.

How do you want to beat Real Madrid by "ceding possession"? They are the masters of this playing style with the ultimate counterattacking players. Ronaldo, Bale, Di Maria, athleticism in midfield and defense. It's a weak idea to try to "out-vertical" them. They are faster, taller, stronger. However lots of their central players struggle against movement, pressure and quick combinations (Ramos, Pepe, Alonso in particular). But we don't do that. Neither did Bayern.

Did i say completely abandon Tiki Taka? No. But what happens if its not working in a match? Keep passing sideways and rinse and repeat?

The key against organized defenses is to score the first goal quickly. That will force them to come out and play right into our hands. What if Tiki Taka fails as opponents are not interested in attacking and have two banks of four in front of the goal.

Why not try more risky passes which we dont do as we are afraid of losing possession. When they lose possession on a counter, counter them and give them a taste of their own medicine instead of slowing down the play and allowing them to get back into shape. Try to score a goal in as few passes as possible on the counter. It wont be a blasphemy if we score a goal with 2-3 passes. But according to Xavi countering is sacrilege and no goal is worthy unless its preceded by 25 passes.

But yeah to do all this you need a strong defence and not a backline of Cuardado-Luiz-Pique-Alba