Frenkie de Jong
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BusiTheKing
Senior Member
sorry but that article sounds biased as hell and waaay too liberal with the conclusions that can be drawn from the data. i'm also skeptical with wild absolute conclusions like claiming that he simply can't position himself correctly. his positioning isn't as refined as busi in the sense of thinking steps ahead. but besides that it's fine. a bit more free roaming than what you'd find in a classic dm but of course thats tweakable.
in the few games, he's been playing at dm, our game has been flowing pretty well imo. he'd need consistent run at dm before you can seriously evaluate anything tho and he still hasn't gotten it.
Birdy
Senior Member
It's not tweakable if your single pivot is free roaming.
That's why they play another DM next to him.
Ten Haag said that. and it's very simple: you can't abandon your position like that, someone else has to be there
The games where he played DM were against fodder opponents like Elche or Plzen. Shortcoming don't show there.
But even then, he still took too much time on the ball to do a simple pass to the open player.
Don't know how biased the article sounded to you, but it summarizes all his flaws (compared to the standards for pivots) really well and in depth.
Didn't say he is a shit player, but that he can't play pivot.
I've been talking about this for several years now. But here, most people have the same level of understanding of the principles of positional football as De Jong, who for 4 years did not learn them. Even bloody Casemiro, who has always been associated with a watchdog, understands these principles better than De Jong.
BusiTheKing
Senior Member
feel like this roaming issue is viewed in a reductionist way too. the context of ten haags words, for example, were an evaluation of how to get the most out of Frenkie. it wasn't his point that Frenkie can't play as a six because for some reason, you can't tell him not to roam around. it's his point that if you wouldn't utilize his roaming ability in a six position. it's not like he just violates tactical instruction. ten haag putting him in a double pivot was a way of building the team around him, getting the max out of him because he was their best player.
of course there are ways to moderate it. you don't have to accomodate him fully with another pivot. but you also don't need to have him stuck completely in the anchor position. the ideal is a fluid trio who can cover for each other. if this wasn't Xavis idea, he wouldn't have Gavi press as an attacker. what's the point of an achored dm if he's isolated when the pressure lines are broken? offensive football requires courage to roam and vacate your base position.
there were periods under valverde where Frenkie was stuck in this weird makeshit LM. he took on that role even though it was against his natural instincts. of course you can mold him. of course you can school him as a classic six. of course you could instruct the midfield around him to cover when he takes a stroll.
and don't tell me that Busquets himself didn't roam much more in 08-11 or in Lucho's first season.
of course there are ways to moderate it. you don't have to accomodate him fully with another pivot. but you also don't need to have him stuck completely in the anchor position. the ideal is a fluid trio who can cover for each other. if this wasn't Xavis idea, he wouldn't have Gavi press as an attacker. what's the point of an achored dm if he's isolated when the pressure lines are broken? offensive football requires courage to roam and vacate your base position.
there were periods under valverde where Frenkie was stuck in this weird makeshit LM. he took on that role even though it was against his natural instincts. of course you can mold him. of course you can school him as a classic six. of course you could instruct the midfield around him to cover when he takes a stroll.
and don't tell me that Busquets himself didn't roam much more in 08-11 or in Lucho's first season.
BusiTheKing
Senior Member
you mean the four years he spent not playing as a pivot?
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His worst performances for Barca have been as a lone pivot. Looked much better at box-to-box and even libero.
Birdy
Senior Member
What's the point in instructing him not to leave his position, if what you get from him as a 6 lone pivot is something meh at best, and hampering the team at worst??
It's not about being a static anchor. It's more about the skillset we discussed: positioning (Frenkie is not good), knowing when to pass/release, and time on the ball - releasing first touch to the correct passing lane (Frenkie is bad there too)
Busquets never roamed in the way you imply. That's the thing. He as one of the cleverest youngsters ever in a position that requires brains, and that showed in his positioning and impeccable decision-making in regards to when and where to pass
The only viable solution would be to change everything to accommodate him, like Koeman wanted to, and play him in his best role with another DM next to him.
But if Koeman himself abandoned the idea, does it mean then that what you get from accommodating him is not worth all the hustle?
TheStig
Member
True, especially not a few day ago against Bayern when he WAS NOT next to Lewa jogging while Bayern was attacking the DM area.
Gnidrologist
Senior Member
Busquets roams too, but is too slow to get back. I'd rather have a roamer with legs than one without.
Also interesting that Zubimendi is now in the talks as Busi heir. He also seem to stroll forward a lot. How does he sells himself to Busi simps then?
Also interesting that Zubimendi is now in the talks as Busi heir. He also seem to stroll forward a lot. How does he sells himself to Busi simps then?
BusiTheKing
Senior Member
I think what will eventually dawn on us if we get someone like Zubimendi -- for all the hypothesized positional reliability of a type like him -- is that he generally just isn't nearly as good a footballer as De Jong.
Buying any of the available DMs of this type might bring some kind of stability, but here I genuinely think people are taking for granted all the little details that make De Jong a top quality player. Go watch a youtube video of Frenkie highlights and I will promise you, 90% of those moves won't be replicated by a player of Zubimendi's caliber.
I think it's very likely we will find ourselves with a side-passing, conservative, ultimately quite limited player who just won't be able contribute much positive.
Buying any of the available DMs of this type might bring some kind of stability, but here I genuinely think people are taking for granted all the little details that make De Jong a top quality player. Go watch a youtube video of Frenkie highlights and I will promise you, 90% of those moves won't be replicated by a player of Zubimendi's caliber.
I think it's very likely we will find ourselves with a side-passing, conservative, ultimately quite limited player who just won't be able contribute much positive.
Gnidrologist
Senior Member
Spot on. I'm not big fan of Dejong, but his rumored alternatives aren't convincing at all. Neither as great players and even less as "Busquets alternatives". Either we get some beast in the vain of Kante or stick with Dejong imho. Zubimendi also looks like another midget choirboy, who will be bullied by bigger players, which we supposedly don't want anymore.
malvolio
Senior Member
France is full of interesting prospects for the DM role. And probably there will be more coming up this season and after the WC. Just keeping FDJ on all that money to just be meh is not feasible.
Gnidrologist
Senior Member
Yeah, France is full of physical africans, who physically mature faster than average. Should just go for one of them hunks.
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