How would we play without Messi ?

[JamDav1982]

Not this again.Just before messi was injured I remember you and bojan saying that neymar can't lead barca.And messi is the single reason why we are not shit.It was all guessing game back then but obviously you were wrong as we are doing fine than you had thought we would do.But now you have changed from 'we would struggle without messi' to 'we will only struggle against top team without messi'.Although yes we would struggle but can you tell me which world class team would have no problems facing another world class team without their best player?If you want barca to do perform well against a top team then do compare it when the other team is also missing its best player.

???

I never said anything about Neymar not being able to lead Barca I have argued Neymars case for long enough. Long before he was even signed.

 

[Neymessi]

???

I never said anything about Neymar not being able to lead Barca I have argued Neymars case for long enough. Long before he was even signed.

shit my bad.Wanted to quote bbz..

 

[Neymessi]

Without Messi, we would be 2nd in La Liga, or maybe 3rd, if we would have disastrous season.
In CL, we would be 50:50 with any semidecent team like City, Dortmund, Psg.
We could win in any of these matches, but we could crumble also, against any opponent. We would play extremely hot and cold against better teams.
In majority of top matches, we would lack a factor X. (Messi)

Against top teams who don't have injuries, like Real or Bayern, we would probably lose (something like 70:30 advantage for them on paper).

About the part how we have proven that we are world class without Messi, we played against a bunch of weak to mediocre teams.
We are so much richer then then and have so much talent that we would win a majority of matches NOT only without Messi, but probably even without 2 out of 3 MSN players (like Messi+Suarez).

Not this again.Just before messi was injured I remember you and bojan saying that neymar can't lead barca.And messi is the single reason why we are not shit.It was all guessing game back then but obviously you were wrong as we are doing fine than you had thought we would do.But now you have changed from 'we would struggle without messi' to 'we will only struggle against top team without messi'.Although yes we would struggle but can you tell me which world class team would have no problems facing another world class team without their best player?If you want barca to do perform well against a top team then do compare it when the other team is also missing its best player.

 

[khaled_a_d]

I wasn't impressed by Neymar till the end of the last season.
Neymar proved to be awesome.
On the other hand, I told for a bunch of (our) players that they are crap, and they turned out to be a crap.
You make mistakes sometimes, you are right sometimes.

Of course that this is a guessing game.
We can't know this for sure UNTIL we will actually have to play CL knockout rounds without Messi.

I love SN duo from MSN trio, but I am not convinced that they would lead us to trophies currently without Messi.
Regarding Neymar, he still can improve a lot.
He could turn into a guy who will alone bring us trophies, but he could also turn into an awesome guy but a guy who alone can't do wonders.

Imo, current team is built around Messi, and SN are his little helpers.
So it is not fair to "play" only with an SN dou.

So, for the end:
1. MSN trio is the best trio in the world, and anything except 2 or 3 CL titles in these 4 years with them, I will consider as a failure
2. SN (Neymar-Suarez) alone, with injured Messi, aren't good enough for CL titles
3. but in some other universe, if Messi would finish his career or get sidelined for 1-2 years, Neymar-Suarez with a new world class 3rd attacker, like Reus or something like that, could again be good enough for a CL glory
-- we wouldn't dominate like with Messi, but we would be one out of 2-3-4 favorites in every season, and we would probably win 1 CL each 3-4-5 years

So, I don't think that in GENERAL Neymar-Suarez are bad/not good enough.
But in the current world, where they are "a weaker" part of MSN trio, they are NOT good enough without Messi (for a CL glory).
In some other universe, with some new MSN-guy, they could be good enough.

We aren't only playing without Messi ,we are playing without Messi and with useless Munir/Sandro in his place
We also has at least 2-3 other player injured ,with Rafinha and Iniesta/Rakitic and to lesser period Roberto out
We are also playing without Vidal and Arda duo to the ban
Now let's say that Messi wasn't in this squad for some reason,we would have probably got someone really good for the right side .at worst it would be Pedro/Sanchez uo level of players
imagine this team full healthy ,with all players and with a proper replacement for Messi at the right flank .this team would be much better than it is now
Obviously Messi makes us better ,he would make any team in this planet much better .
But we would still win trophies .again many teams won the CL and only one team of them had Messi
When he is retired ,he will be missed like no other player I've witnessed .but we should still be very good dominant powerhouse in Europe

 

[BBZ8800]

Not this again.Just before messi was injured I remember you and bojan saying that neymar can't lead barca.And messi is the single reason why we are not shit.It was all guessing game back then but obviously you were wrong as we are doing fine than you had thought we would do.But now you have changed from 'we would struggle without messi' to 'we will only struggle against top team without messi'.Although yes we would struggle but can you tell me which world class team would have no problems facing another world class team without their best player?If you want barca to do perform well against a top team then do compare it when the other team is also missing its best player.

Ok, isn't there a difference between leading Barca against Rayo Vallecano without Messi and leading Barca in CL semis against Bayern or Real?

Neymar could be good enough to lead us even then.
But, we haven't been in that situation yet.

So, this is just a guessing game again.
You think that he could lead us titles without Messi, I am not sure yet.
Again, in Neymar-Suarez-Reus trio, I would have more faith.
I a trio MSN (where Messi is out for a year, theoretically), then I have less faith in SN dou alone without Messi and without a new 3rd guy.

But now you have changed from 'we would struggle without messi' to 'we will only struggle against top team without messi'.

I don't think that any sane person thought that we will actually struggle in EVERY match against Rayo and Levante without Messi.
We will have more problems, as we had in some matches, but we can survive majority of those matches.

Although yes we would struggle but can you tell me which world class team would have no problems facing another world class team without their best player?If you want barca to do perform well against a top team then do compare it when the other team is also missing its best player.

Have you been Barca's fan before Messi (before the world even knew that Messi exists)?
No, missing a key player in a top team is one thing (like missing Robben or Muller for Bayern).
Missing Messi is another thing.

It is not comparable in any way:
= missing Messi and missing any other player in any top team
= and having Messi in our team, and having any other player in the world in any other team

Let's not enter into whether Ney is good enough, how good he is etc.
You started with some posts when you say as if Ney proved that we can play well without Messi.

My point is:
-- we played against Bate Borisov and Leverkusen
-- and a few matches against midtable La Liga teams

When our team will knockout Bayern or Real without Messi in our team, then we can talk about: players have proven that we can live/play without Messi.

but we should still be very good dominant powerhouse in Europe

I never say that we won't.

But from being the biggest favorite in a CL for 10 seasons in a row, we will turn into 1 out of 3-4 favorites.

In numbers:
-- world with Messi, CL favorites each year:
1. Barca 50%
2. Real 20%
3. Bayern 20%
4. all other teams 10%

-- world after Messi in Barca:
1. Barca 25%
2. Real 25%
3. Bayern 25%
4. all other teams 25%

 

[serghei]

We would adapt and continue to fight for all trophies. We still have a world class team without Messi. Messi makes it even better.

 

[serghei]

Let's not enter into whether Ney is good enough, how good he is etc.
You started with some posts when you say as if Ney proved that we can play well without Messi.

My point is:
-- we played against Bate Borisov and Leverkusen
-- and a few matches against midtable La Liga teams

When our team will knockout Bayern or Real without Messi in our team, then we can talk about: players have proven that we can live/play without Messi

There is a problem with that
logic. We player with Munir at RW in those games, not with some World Class winger. So it was Neymar - Suarez - Munir. Not Neymar - Suarez - Reus let's say.

 

[JamDav1982]

BBZ - you claimed a few weeks ago the team would struggle in 50% of games without Messi. That hasn't happened and now you are writing off the teams you knew Barca were coming up against as 'mediocre'.

Of course Barca are less likely to beat Real/Bayern without him but so to would the team be less likely to beat them without Neymar or Suarez. For example Neymar and Suarez arguably had better games than Messi vs Real last year. Although Messo clearly best of the three.

You can't just lie and say 'Messi has made Barca strongest fav in CL in last ten years'.
Barca are not the favs now and haven't been for last 2/3 years. Not were Barca favs between 2005-2009 for most part.

 

[BBZ8800]

BBZ - you claimed a few weeks ago the team would struggle in 50% of games without Messi. That hasn't happened and now you are writing off the teams you knew Barca were coming up against as 'mediocre'.

Of course Barca are less likely to beat Real/Bayern without him but so to would the team be less likely to beat them without Neymar or Suarez. For example Neymar and Suarez arguably had better games than Messi vs Real last year. Although Messo clearly best of the three.

You can't just lie and say 'Messi has made Barca strongest fav in CL in last ten years'.
Barca are not the favs now and haven't been for last 2/3 years. Not were Barca favs between 2005-2009 for most part.

I thought that we will lose more points without Messi, true.

We are no1 favorites in any CL season.
In the current season, we are by far NO1 favorites.

 

[JamDav1982]

I thought that we will lose more points without Messi, true.

We are no1 favorites in any CL season.
In the current season, we are by far NO1 favorites.

In your mind Barca may be favourites but I can assure you Barcelona have not been the bookies favourites every year in last ten. Be lucky if been favs in five or six at most.

 

[NotInHere]

Barca have always been worldclass without Messi and will continue to be when he is gone, saturdays game will be the perfect game to analyze if they can win live without him.

 

[serghei]

Barca have always been worldclass without Messi and will continue to be when he is gone, saturdays game will be the perfect game to analyze if they can win live without him.

Actually, it won't. With Messi last year we got outplayed in 3/4 halves vs Madrid. You can very well lose against Real Madrid with Messi on. It's a close contest either way, Madrid has a much better team than 5-6 years ago.

 

[NotInHere]

Actually, it won't. With Messi last year we got outplayed in 3/4 halves vs Madrid. You can very well lose against Real Madrid with Messi on. It's a close contest either way, Madrid has a much better team than 5-6 years ago.

barca have been fine without messi, if they win without him then that means Barca can win against powerhouses without him, that's the point really.

 

[BBZ8800]

barca have been fine without messi, if they win without him then that means Barca can win against powerhouses without him, that's the point really.

I was talking about larger samples.

One game against Madrid, either if we lose 0:5 or win 5:0, doesn't mean too much.
To realize our real strength without Messi, we would need to play much longer without him.
A few El classicos, CL quarters, semis, finals, probably for 2-3 years, to see it "clearer", with more objectivity and on a larger sample.

 

[Neymessi]

bbz, its high time you eat your words

I was talking about larger samples.

One game against Madrid, either if we lose 0:5 or win 5:0, doesn't mean too much.
To realize our real strength without Messi, we would need to play much longer without him.
A few El classicos, CL quarters, semis, finals, probably for 2-3 years, to see it "clearer", with more objectivity and on a larger sample.