Ilaix Moriba

[serghei]

Chelsea especially. CRAZY how much better they are under Tuchel than Lampard.

Yea, because Chelsea is a higher-level side, than Ajax, Tottenham, or Lyon. So when you add elite management to a tier A club you go very very far. With teams like Ajax, Tottenham, Lyon you can't go far for long.

But even those tier 2 or even tier 3 teams played better football than us in recent years vs big teams.

 

[Porque]

Also Barca with Tata Martino, compared with Barca with Tata Martino.





(Think about it)

 

[mc_lovin]

Lyon, Tottenham, Ajax, even this season's Chelsea exploded right after they got a manager who elevated the team instantly. Even Leipzig last year in CL was better than us.

These are teams where management elevates the team above the base capabilities of the squad.

Chelsea is incredibly disingenuous - they spend 200ME net this window. Lyon really isnt up there as teams, who achieve "great" success. Tottenham neither. Ajax was awesome, but they had an incredible generation and generally a team that made a lot of sense in every position.

There arent teams with just "good" players+a great coach, that win stuff. Its always a core of great players+good role/squad/whatever players. And I would seriously argue we lack the latter badly (good role players).

Not that we dont need a great coach mind you.

 

[serghei]

Chelsea is incredibly disingenuous - they spend 200ME net this window. Lyon really isnt up there as teams, who achieve "great" success. Tottenham neither. Ajax was awesome, but they had an incredible generation and generally a team that made a lot of sense in any position.

There arent teams with just "good" players+a great coach, that win stuff. Its always a core of great players+good role/squad/whatever players. And I would seriously argue we lack the latter badly (good role players).

Not that we dont need a great coach mind you.

And how much did we spent? You think an elite manager wouldn't get more out of Griezmann, De Jong, Dest etc? Someone like Tuchel would get more out of these players instantly.

Weren't fans making fun of how lost Chelsea's new signings look? Now suddenly they start performing, because, surprise, they landed someone who know what he is doing very well... and now suddenly Chelsea are filled with world class players.

This was the consensus when they were coached by Lampard?

Weren't Chelsea 0-3 down to City in the first half just months ago, looking like clowns? Now they beat City twice in 2 weeks or so, looking like the better team both times too.

 

[mc_lovin]

And how much did we spent? You think an elite manager wouldn't get more out of Griezmann, De Jong, Dest etc? Someone like Tuchel would get more out of these players instantly.

Weren't fans making fun of how lost Chelsea's new signings look? Now suddenly they start performing, because, surprise, they landed someone who know what he is doing very well... and now suddenly Chelsea are filled with world class players.

This was the consensus when they were coached by Lampard?

Maybe the new Chelsea players just got acclimated ;-)

But sure, a better coach would help, but I have a hard time believing you can fix our squad composition with a great coach alone. Didnt matter how much we spend either, we depend of a bunch of kids, veterans and "worldclass" players who dont fit. Not comparable to Chelsea for example at all.

 

[serghei]

Maybe the new Chelsea players just got acclimated ;-)

But sure, a better coach would help, but I have a hard time believing you can fix our squad composition with a great coach alone. Didnt matter how much we spend either, we depend of a bunch of kids, veterans and "worldclass" players who dont fit. Not comparable to Chelsea for example at all.

Yea, it's just a coincidence that they got acclimated after Lampard was sacked and Tuchel was named. Same with Liverpool before. Henderson acclimated at 27 years old and became a top player, would've happened with Rodgers as well. So would Origi, he'd have scored 3 goals in CL semis and final with any other manager.

Come on... the manager is the single most important piece at big teams. You get that right, very right, and all sorts of doors open up for you. You get that wrong, and the difference in output can be consistent.

Of course you need good players. But... let's be real here, Barca aren't suddenly Lyon or Leicester. We have plenty of class players in the team. We just have no "team" because we have had a bunch of mediocre managers all this time.

 

[Rory]

We have plenty of class players in the team.

Name 5 players that are top 5 in the world for their position.

 

[serghei]

Name 5 players that are top 5 in the world for their position.

Chelsea has only Kante that is world-class. So...

 

[Rory]

Chelsea has only Kante that is world-class. So...

But your point was that we have plenty of class players. We can change it to top 10 if you want.

 

[serghei]

But your point was that we have plenty of class players. We can change it to top 10 if you want.

Messi, De Jong, Griezmann.

These are top-class players. Sure, you can say Griezmann hasn't been playing like one, but this the subject of discussion, how to get more out of existing players.

 

[Bobo32]

Messi, Busquets, Pique, ter Stegen, Alba I think were the ones Xavi singled out as maybe being the best in the world in their positions? These are the ones I'd list.
Frenkie, Pedri, Puig could be argued as top 5, as well as Griezmann, Dembele, Coutinho too (based on different criteria).

Robertson, Arnold, Milner and Henderson weren't rated by anyone and then suddenly they were unplayable, it was the same with Pedro, Pique and Busquets once.

 

[Rory]

Messi, De Jong, Griezmann.

These are top-class players. Sure, you can say Griezmann hasn't been playing like one, but this the subject of discussion, how to get more out of existing players.

Yeah those three are fine choices. All suitable for different systems though wouldn't you say? Maybe 2 of them could suit the same one, doubt all 3 though. Chelsea might not have a squad of world class players but they have the right combination of players who are all on the rise and all at a level where they hover outside probably the top 20 in the world.

Our squad in comparison has a random group of players who range from top 5 to top 40, different ages, experience and hunger, also many with different ideal systems.

Not saying the manager doesn't make a difference, I think we'd have probably won la liga with a better manager. But that's not a huge achievement this year considering the form of the others fighting for the league.

 

[mc_lovin]

Messi, De Jong, Griezmann.

These are top-class players. Sure, you can say Griezmann hasn't been playing like one, but this the subject of discussion, how to get more out of existing players.

Our offensive core was Dembele, Griezmann and Messi this season. Thats rough. With zero depth as well. I just dont believe anyone could have made that work.

Our defensive core was Araujo, Lenglet and Mingueza. And not much depth either. Koeman might actually deserve some credit here.

Our midfield core was Frenkie, Busquets and Pedri. And really nothing behind that.


Now look at Chelsea, their players have a pretty great age distribution. Youngest is 20 (Hudson Odoi). Only one veteran who is a starter (Silva). Rest has perfect age between 21-29/30. And all established players as well (unlike Puig for example).


Do we need a better coach? Heck, yes. But do I expect a better coach to compete for big titles this season (apart from the League, which has been very weak)? With our current squad? No. And thats really my only point. I just dont buy that great coaches can compensate for extremely flawed squads. For a good but not great squad? Sure. But ours isnt "good".

 

[khaled_a_d]

And how much did we spent? You think an elite manager wouldn't get more out of Griezmann, De Jong, Dest etc? Someone like Tuchel would get more out of these players instantly.

Who do you think qualify as elite managers? I am genuinely interested, since the manager thing has been your go to argument about everything. Results, every player you like that isn't performing is always due to lack of elite managers.
I know you rate Pep & Klopp, but would love to hear a list that has 7-10 managers.

Honestly, I think managers are the 2nd most important part after the sporting department, Chelsea has put up the pieces of successful team from the start. They already got extremly good players there, Mount is world class, Kante and Kai too, Werner seems like their own Benzema, a striker who does everything great but wasteful. T.Silva is a good leader for their defense.

Lampard is a 2nd division coach, whose story seems to resemble Xavi is a worrisome manner btw but that is a different argument, and he got sacked for failing to meet their goals.
Tuchel is a good manager, who got sacked few months ago, who fit that project perfectly more than the 2nd division level manager, and the sporting project is working in full force.


I mean, when you look at current managers, most of them benefited from some luck/unluck in their side.
Klopp said it the best when he was awarded coach of the year in 2019, it was 1 game difference between him and Pochettino, if the Argentinian won the game in CL final, he is manager of the year and Klopp is the choker, the Ballack of coaches.
If EV has his team not shitting the bed in 2nd half in Anfield, his resume for most neutral would have been way different.

If Tuchel fails to win CL (likely) and finish top 4 this year (very unlikely) he will be considered another choker, just like people think now of Pochettino
If Pep fails to win a CL, it will be still a stain in his legacy with City.

I mean seriously, outside of Pep and Klopp, I doubt you will get a coach that will have 50% of fans thinking he is elite.

The easiest way to build a team, isn't to get a coach, but to get the sporting project right. A good coach with pieces that fits will do you wonders, an elite coach with misfits will finish 4th like Pep in 2017

And btw, I doubt any manager will get more out of those 3 players in particular. One is huge misfit, one is playing for a manager that knows him better than anyone and is building midfield around him, the other is an extremely raw players that last year Ajax fans thought he should not be starter if it wasn't for injuries.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=11668]khaled_a_d[/MENTION], yes, the right manager has been my main argument on rebuilding the team, any team. For me, it's obvious. But I noticed that with you guys, after a top team (Barca are a top team btw) get a top-class manager, you immediately undermine the manager's role a bit, and start to big up the players. Mount world-class? No, he's a good young player who can be world-class. And judging at what Tuchel did with Chelsea in some months, he will be. So will other Chelsea players. Just like Liverpool.

IIRC, you guys did the same with Liverpool. Oh, Mane and Salah were world-class. Before Klopp got his hand on them, nobody rated them world-class and that's a fact.

Maybe, just maybe, Klopp, Guardiola, now Tuchel are the differentiating factor when you look at how Liverpool, City, now Chelsea improved when they got there.

I'd say the manager is joint 1st most important with the board. The one time when the manager can be "carried" a bit is when you build a super team, then the manager can be medium-level tactically as long as he knows how to deal with stars and different egos. Which happens very very rarely. And even then, the manager still has to be competent.

Bottom line, get a top manager and the team will start to move in the right direction.

From the known names, the top managers good for Barca are: Guardiola, Klopp, Naggelsmann, Tuchel.

Dark horses: Xavi (has the making of a top manager), maybe Pimienta (although question marks about his ability to impose himself over the locker room).

Top managers unfit for us: Simeone, Zidane, Conte, Allegri (any conservative Italian-style manager).