JerseyAddict
Well-known member
Oh. You flatter me, Sir.
Hahaha... I had to think twice what you wrote (not a native speaker).
La Liga | Round 33: FC Barcelona - Granada 1-2
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
Oh. You flatter me, Sir.
Hahaha... I had to think twice what you wrote (not a native speaker).
serghei
Senior Member
Fluke or not, a domestic double is a domestic double. Nobody thought under EV that we were some elite side, after fecking Roma mauled us. But the titles remain and are valuable.
Bobo32
Senior Member
Barcelona crushed Liverpool the year after in the first leg of the SF, remember. Liverpool then won the title yes? And the PL? Some saying they were contenders for greatest team of all time?
Of course things changed in Anfield, but that was on the mental side of the game - a strange collapse like the year before. Barcelona were an elite side without a doubt under Valverde.
Birdy
Senior Member
Some calm thoughts now that the blood is cold, and the disappointment after yesterday's game has receded a bit.
Tactical issues:
-> I will reiterate an observation I have made again.
It should be clear to Koeman and Schreuder that the 3 at the back, whether 3-5-2 or 3-4-3, is not the ideal formation against deep, parked buses.
It happened again, soon after the 3-5-2 was introduced, but it didn't cost us.
We didn't take the message. Now it did cost.
It happened again:
1 - March 6th: Osasuna - Barcelona 0-2
Despite Alba's early goal, Osasuna creates a big chance in the first half.
Koeman subs Umtiti off to introduce Dembele and switch to 4-3-3.
Osasuna does not threaten again, and Illaix seals it just before the end.
2- March 15th: Barcelona - Huesca 4-1
Huesca stays deep and narrow, we struggle to break them, and whenever they get a chance to run on the counter they look dangerous.
We score through some crazy shots by Messi and Griezman, but we don't look comfortable against them despite the 2 goal lead.
69' and Koeman subs Dest off, and switches to 4-3-3 with Mingueza as RB, and Dembele as winger.
From that moment we look super comfortable.
4 - April 4th: Barca - Valladolid 1-0
The game we won with the Dembele goal at the end.
We failed to break them the entire game, and did not record any significantly important chance to score.
The pattern was similar: Valladolid very deep giving us all the space and waiting in the box.
4 - April 22nd: Barca - Getafe 5-2
Scoreline suggests 'comfortable win', but we created only one big chance (the Messi goal at 33') before Araujo's header at min 87.
Getafe created also one big chance that was led to Lenglet's own goal.
We played the whole game 3-5-2
5 - April 29th: Barca - Granada 1-2
Finally we get to yesterday's game, which we were unlucky not to draw: should have ended 2-2 based on big chances (if Messi had scored that chance at 36').
But all the problems that were only seen in some embryonic forms in the previous 3 games mentioned reappeared violently yesterday.
Granada was by far the best team of the 5 ones mentioned above, and was super compact in its deep block, and broke super fast on the counter.
Provisional conclusions:
The 3-5-2/3-4-3 is not effective against deep and compact blocks.
I think we have enough evidence already to suggest that, based on the 5 games above, irrespective of the result.
On the contrary it proved fantastic against: Sevilla (twice), Real Sociedad, Bilbao, Villareal, PSG.
Hence against teams that try to press aggressively or at least moderately in the mid 3rd of the pitch, and at the same time hold their last line of defense somewhat higher.
The only time it failed (although it did not fail exactly) was in the 1st half against RM.
Provisional explanation:
The 3 at the back formation do not work against deep and compact blocks, because we sacrifice players from the areas we need them to be, and we overpopulate areas we don't need players to be.
- The wings are occupied by the wing-backs only (one on each flank), while the deep block of the opposition (whether in 4-4-2, 5-4-1, 4-5-1) features two of them.
Hence, the one v one situation that can create a rupture of the block on the flank vanishes.
- Penetration directly through the middle is very hard to materialize, as there are many players crammed in small spaces, where even Messi finds it hard to manoeuver around and pick the right option. Even when he receive the ball, he lacks the options in front of him to make a final pass to: it will be either Griezman or Frenkie having run to the box.
- At the same time, he does not have the most effective option when the center is packed -> a diagonal pass to a winger operating at the edge of the box to storm diagonally in the box. A wing-back will rarely make that move when in a 2v1 missmatch.
- Thus, the only option left is either a fantastic 1 touch combination between the players operating centrally (like the one between Messi and Griezman yesterday) to free one of them to finish with a shot - rarely executed correctly and idealistic to rely on - or a shot from distance with low % of being scored (the crazy shots that became goals against Huesca)
- At the other end, there are 3 CBs (and in the 3-5-2 Busi as well) watching only 1 forward of the opposition and ready to distribute the ball first and foremost to either wing-back, and secondarily to one of the CMs. Bielsa's and Pep's principle says "Always have 1 man more than your opponent, so you get the numerical advantage".
But 2 more men, or 3 more men is a waste/misallocation of resources.
In addition, the most powerful weapons against deep blocks (at least judging from the recent history of the sport) are missing:
1) Full-backs overlapping, and 2) a target man in the box, with 1) being the more important of the two
with 1) you can overturn the numerical disadvantage on both flanks and make the 1v2 into a 2v2 where Barca's superior players can beat their opponent and create ruptures on both flanks (needless to mention how crucial Dembele as a winger is for this, but also Dest and Alba as full backs), which will in turn force the opposition to lose their compactness when having Barca players in front of them and not behind their back (even out wide).
With full-backs, when Messi receives the ball centrally he knows he can play a diagonal through ball to either the winger or the full back making the right move, and split the opposition defense.
with 2) you can make sure their last line of defense cannot outnumber the players storming in the box to be at the receiving end of a cross from either the winger or the full-back that managed to break the block on either flank.
I think this points out that it should always be a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 against deep blocks, and inferior opposition.
Teams that do not look to press any high or disrupt the buildup early, but are rather content to wait in or just outside of their box in a compact shape.
On the contrary, the 4-3-3 can be dangerous against the teams that look to do precisely that (PSG 1st leg, Sevilla Copa 1st leg)
That is only provisional, but it seems right to me at the moment
Tactical issues:
-> I will reiterate an observation I have made again.
It should be clear to Koeman and Schreuder that the 3 at the back, whether 3-5-2 or 3-4-3, is not the ideal formation against deep, parked buses.
It happened again, soon after the 3-5-2 was introduced, but it didn't cost us.
We didn't take the message. Now it did cost.
It happened again:
1 - March 6th: Osasuna - Barcelona 0-2
Despite Alba's early goal, Osasuna creates a big chance in the first half.
Koeman subs Umtiti off to introduce Dembele and switch to 4-3-3.
Osasuna does not threaten again, and Illaix seals it just before the end.
2- March 15th: Barcelona - Huesca 4-1
Huesca stays deep and narrow, we struggle to break them, and whenever they get a chance to run on the counter they look dangerous.
We score through some crazy shots by Messi and Griezman, but we don't look comfortable against them despite the 2 goal lead.
69' and Koeman subs Dest off, and switches to 4-3-3 with Mingueza as RB, and Dembele as winger.
From that moment we look super comfortable.
4 - April 4th: Barca - Valladolid 1-0
The game we won with the Dembele goal at the end.
We failed to break them the entire game, and did not record any significantly important chance to score.
The pattern was similar: Valladolid very deep giving us all the space and waiting in the box.
4 - April 22nd: Barca - Getafe 5-2
Scoreline suggests 'comfortable win', but we created only one big chance (the Messi goal at 33') before Araujo's header at min 87.
Getafe created also one big chance that was led to Lenglet's own goal.
We played the whole game 3-5-2
5 - April 29th: Barca - Granada 1-2
Finally we get to yesterday's game, which we were unlucky not to draw: should have ended 2-2 based on big chances (if Messi had scored that chance at 36').
But all the problems that were only seen in some embryonic forms in the previous 3 games mentioned reappeared violently yesterday.
Granada was by far the best team of the 5 ones mentioned above, and was super compact in its deep block, and broke super fast on the counter.
Provisional conclusions:
The 3-5-2/3-4-3 is not effective against deep and compact blocks.
I think we have enough evidence already to suggest that, based on the 5 games above, irrespective of the result.
On the contrary it proved fantastic against: Sevilla (twice), Real Sociedad, Bilbao, Villareal, PSG.
Hence against teams that try to press aggressively or at least moderately in the mid 3rd of the pitch, and at the same time hold their last line of defense somewhat higher.
The only time it failed (although it did not fail exactly) was in the 1st half against RM.
Provisional explanation:
The 3 at the back formation do not work against deep and compact blocks, because we sacrifice players from the areas we need them to be, and we overpopulate areas we don't need players to be.
- The wings are occupied by the wing-backs only (one on each flank), while the deep block of the opposition (whether in 4-4-2, 5-4-1, 4-5-1) features two of them.
Hence, the one v one situation that can create a rupture of the block on the flank vanishes.
- Penetration directly through the middle is very hard to materialize, as there are many players crammed in small spaces, where even Messi finds it hard to manoeuver around and pick the right option. Even when he receive the ball, he lacks the options in front of him to make a final pass to: it will be either Griezman or Frenkie having run to the box.
- At the same time, he does not have the most effective option when the center is packed -> a diagonal pass to a winger operating at the edge of the box to storm diagonally in the box. A wing-back will rarely make that move when in a 2v1 missmatch.
- Thus, the only option left is either a fantastic 1 touch combination between the players operating centrally (like the one between Messi and Griezman yesterday) to free one of them to finish with a shot - rarely executed correctly and idealistic to rely on - or a shot from distance with low % of being scored (the crazy shots that became goals against Huesca)
- At the other end, there are 3 CBs (and in the 3-5-2 Busi as well) watching only 1 forward of the opposition and ready to distribute the ball first and foremost to either wing-back, and secondarily to one of the CMs. Bielsa's and Pep's principle says "Always have 1 man more than your opponent, so you get the numerical advantage".
But 2 more men, or 3 more men is a waste/misallocation of resources.
In addition, the most powerful weapons against deep blocks (at least judging from the recent history of the sport) are missing:
1) Full-backs overlapping, and 2) a target man in the box, with 1) being the more important of the two
with 1) you can overturn the numerical disadvantage on both flanks and make the 1v2 into a 2v2 where Barca's superior players can beat their opponent and create ruptures on both flanks (needless to mention how crucial Dembele as a winger is for this, but also Dest and Alba as full backs), which will in turn force the opposition to lose their compactness when having Barca players in front of them and not behind their back (even out wide).
With full-backs, when Messi receives the ball centrally he knows he can play a diagonal through ball to either the winger or the full back making the right move, and split the opposition defense.
with 2) you can make sure their last line of defense cannot outnumber the players storming in the box to be at the receiving end of a cross from either the winger or the full-back that managed to break the block on either flank.
I think this points out that it should always be a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 against deep blocks, and inferior opposition.
Teams that do not look to press any high or disrupt the buildup early, but are rather content to wait in or just outside of their box in a compact shape.
On the contrary, the 4-3-3 can be dangerous against the teams that look to do precisely that (PSG 1st leg, Sevilla Copa 1st leg)
That is only provisional, but it seems right to me at the moment
Richard.H
Senior Member
[MENTION=4451]Birdy[/MENTION] I think out of all of the matches you talked about, the Valladolid one is the only one where I felt the 3-5-2 really failed. That match could've easily ended 0-0 had it not been for Dembele's lucky goal. Valladolid defense and in particular Masip were doing a great job. Maybe Getafe game too, that game was way too close until the last 10 mins or so.
What's extremely disappointing vs Granada is that we didn't even create many chances, and barely any in the 2nd half. That's pathetic for Barca.
I think the issue really comes down to two things: intensity and energy. When we don't play with both, we look like EV barca. You can't play slow passes and slow build up at this stage of the season when you're so close to the title. It's inexcusable.
What's extremely disappointing vs Granada is that we didn't even create many chances, and barely any in the 2nd half. That's pathetic for Barca.
I think the issue really comes down to two things: intensity and energy. When we don't play with both, we look like EV barca. You can't play slow passes and slow build up at this stage of the season when you're so close to the title. It's inexcusable.
Birdy
Senior Member
These are core principles, and it's def. true you need that to play modern football.
I don't think the defeat against Granada was down to that, though..
We lost the tactical battle, and I am afraid the reason is the overpopulation of wrong areas on the pitch against deep blocks
Some more thoughts on similar lines here: https://barcauniversal.com/barcelon...crisis-as-la-liga-heads-into-its-final-weeks/
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those are the clubs you can lose to as barca. but NEVER the fucking struggler teams from the back row of the table. unforgivable
snowy
Well-known member
I'm thinking 3-2. Easy chance when Frenkie bounced the tap-in straight at the keeper and when the ball returned to him, his cleats hit the post.
All in all, seemed like we dominated even with the 3-5-2 till the 70th min or so and than started tiring whereas Granada picked up a booster after their first goal.
You're right that 3-5-2 is not the way to go vs double-deckers. Wingers would've defo helped stretch those compact defenses.
There were some crisp 1-2s inside the box but not enough 1v1 duels, other than from Messi. A mix of dribbles, quick combis, crosses, through/looped passes and shots from outside the box is the way to go but we mainly resorted to tiki-kiki and that's why Granada had so many interceptions despite our quality.
And since Messi was our only dribbler, they could easily gang up and crowd him. It was good for me to see the Bouzeman in the last quarter add some unpredictability to the mix. Need more of that.
Busi's through and looped balls were awesome but unlucky, they didn't lead to goals. When he's on form, dude's still crushing it!
Also thumbsup to Frenkie for his progressive runs behind the lines. Ilaix also a good game. Alpha, Pikeman, Tities and Blob looked dead in the water though. Liga is still on. Real has a crazy schedule ahead so chances of dropping points is uhm Real lol
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